|By Jason A. Churchill||By 11-15-2012|
|1. By: jgstecker on 11-15-2012 06:00:55|
The Gutierrez option opens up some possibilities, but is there enough in the budget to add another corner OF?
I wonder what Saunders' value would be to one of the several clubs looking for a new CF.
|2. By: KingFelix on 11-15-2012 07:48:15|
How about we trade Vargas, Paxson and another prospect for Alex Gordon and turn around and sign Grenkie and Cabrera. This way we keep our #12 pick as well.
|3. By: AdamSt on 11-15-2012 07:54:51|
I'm surprised Gutierrez has any trade value after missing most of the last two seasons and being under club control for one season. Saunders seems to be his near equal with a much better contract situation.
|4. By: Jason A. Churchill on 11-15-2012 10:40:01|
The Royals wants a lot more than that for Butler, let alone Gordon, their MVP.
|5. By: Rudolf on 11-15-2012 10:46:46|
JAC, if we did get Butler from KC, would he play 1B, would Montero play 1B, would they share 1B, or would we trade Montero?
|6. By: maqman on 11-15-2012 11:18:42|
We have Smoak, Carp, Montero, Jaso and possibly Ackley to fill 1B and DH with on hand. If we get Butler some of them will sit without him and one more with him. His 3.2 WAR is less than Swisher or Denard Span or Josh Willingham (all at 3.9 WAR) and he is useless with the glove, his UZR/150 is -23.5 at 1B in KC this past season. He can hit and that's no small thing but he has limitations. We could give Smoak, Carp or Montero to KC as part of the deal but they will then probably go on to be all-stars.
|7. By: JonathanAicardi on 11-15-2012 12:06:03|
You've got Seager in your best-case batting order but not in your best-case roster. I assume you mean to say that if we were to upgrade at third, this is a better scenario because it means Seager can be moved elsewhere on the field. I can't imagine losing a pre-arb 3-win player and virtually our ONLY productive player is a good thing for us at this stage, particularly with some upside as the fences move in. Is he in your best-case roster and where?
|8. By: diderot on 11-15-2012 12:33:38|
In order to achieve your best case scenario, are you saying that Montero, Seagar and Ryan would all have to be sent off in trades?
If the team has any intention of ever giving Montero time at first base, isn't it mandatory that he be playing that position somewhere this winter? Or could they really toss him a first base glove in spring training and say, 'hey, let's see what you can do'?
|9. By: pwhit44 on 11-15-2012 23:24:58|
Adding to the earlier dude's package, would Paxton, Vargas, Romero, plus Wells, Beavan, etc. be enough for Gordon? Or are we just completely out of the ballpark, and it has to start with Walker?
Just curious. Feels like you are implying Walker would have to be involved, but I could be wrong. In that case, I think the whole Gordon thing is probably pretty inconceivable.
|10. By: jgthompson21 on 11-16-2012 04:23:19|
My question is two fold.
1st: Jason, would the big three be enough to pry stanton away from Miami?
2nd: Would anyone here be opposed of trading the big three for stanton?
|11. By: dewey on 11-16-2012 04:45:18|
#5 They both would be bad defenders at 1st pick your poision /#10 QUESTION 2 Miami wouldnt do it and Jack wouldnt be allowed to
|12. By: dewey on 11-16-2012 05:20:54|
Anybody believing Chuck saying they are in on Hamilton?
|13. By: jgstecker on 11-16-2012 06:53:25|
The Ms are definitely in on Hamilton. So are a dozen other teams.
I can see Seattle going to 5 and $125 on Hamilton, but somebody else may go higher. Or maybe not.
|14. By: Mackie on 11-16-2012 10:24:26|
Great write-up on all the possibilities and scenarios, Jason. Thanks for the excellent thought-fodder!
We like to talk about the "big three". I tend to think of it more as a "big four" when Maurer is added... he tends to be forgotten in all the hoopla about the other three. And if you add in Erasmo Ramirez, it's more like a "big four +".
My guess is that to pry Butler away from KC the M's would have to do something like Vargas, Montero, Ryan or Franklin, one of the "big four +" SPs and maybe another prospect or two. For any excellent hitter, a hefty price will probably be exacted from the Mariners by the other team. It's fun to think about getting something great in return for as little as possible, but because other teams know how badly the M's need hitting, I think those other teams probably won't be so kind as to accomodate pipe dreams. 8-)
Butler would instantly make the Mariners offense better, and he is a pretty special hitter. But would the M's, just a year after trading two of their decent youngsters for Montero (who projects pretty much as a DH and probably has lots of room left to grow) make another trade of more decent prospects for another guy who is pretty much a DH (albeit a better one at this time in his development)?
Or should they be trying to use their best trade chips for a corner outfielder? If they can satisfy some of their OF needs through free agency, I'd be fine with such a deal for Butler. How nice would the lineup look with Butler at DH and Hamilton in LF? 8-)
|15. By: skyway park on 11-16-2012 11:04:57|
Jays just inked Melky for 2 years 16 million wish the M's would have got him for left field.
|16. By: Jon O on 11-16-2012 11:09:50|
Great write-up Jason!
I saw you mention on ESPN today that teams could be interested in Tulo and Cargo. I think that Tulo would be a great fit in terms of: leadership, in his prime, signed for the long term, good defensive SS and a true clean-up hitter at a premium position.
What do you think of the M's targeting Tulo (SS) and Cuddyer (RF, LF, 3B, 1B & 2B) for a potential package centered around Walker, Paxton, Franklin and Casper Wells?
I'm also intrigued by Ben Revere as a potential lead-off hitter. Would Erasmo for Revere make sense for both teams?
|17. By: Rudolf on 11-16-2012 11:11:33|
Montero, Franklin, Paxton, Vargas, + for Butler? Butler is a nice hitter, don't get me wrong, but Montero could equal Butler's production as soon as 2013 all by himself. Bill James projects Montero to OPS .800 in 2013 with 22 dingers. That's practically Billy Butler production right there (sans Butler's 2012). Butler has proven he has no defensive position and he makes $28.5 million over the next three years. There is hope Montero can stick at 1B, or at least as a part-time catcher, and he costs peanuts over the next three years.
If Montero turned out to be a hitter of Butler's quality I would be a little disappointed, not much. That's a pretty good hitter.
Then on top of Montero you want to throw in Franklin, a potential 3-4 WAR middle infielder who is almost major league ready, Paxton/Maurer/Hultzen, who all project as 2/3 starting pitchers within the next two years, Vargas, a decent 2 WAR pitcher, plus something?
That's not an overpay. That's Mark Teixeira, chuckle for the next decade, point to it every time a bad trade is discussed, overpay.
|18. By: masonb on 11-16-2012 11:26:34|
I know he's not an established player yet, but with the signing by Toronto of Melky and the fact te Jays are looking for another SP, any chance a guy like Vargas could be packaged with a reliever like Kelley to bring back Gose?
|19. By: pwhit44 on 11-16-2012 13:03:09|
jgthompson21: Yes and no. I would trade Walker and one other of the big three for Stanton. All three is too much.
...As I typed that, I changed my mind. I might trade all three for Stanton.
|20. By: Mackie on 11-16-2012 13:31:14|
Rudolf, thanks for the Bill James tip, that's encouraging about Montero! I also think he has a pretty good ceiling.
Like I said, "It's fun to think about getting something great in return for as little as possible, but because other teams know how badly the M's need hitting, I think those other teams probably won't be so kind as to accomodate pipe dreams."
If the M's want Billy Butler, I think the kind of package I mentioned is what KC would probably demand. They are likely to want good pitching, and probably some help on offense in there somewhere to make up for the loss of Butler. I didn't mean "trade those players" specifically and should have specified such. And, while you said "Franklin", I did "Ryan or Franklin" but I didn't mention I'd rather keep Franklin around. Also, my bad on not being more clear that it was the *type of package* I was trying to talk about.
In any event, gotta give something to get something back. And if the M's give up good players in any deal, some of us are bound to holler, seeing as we are all armchair GMs and have our opinions.
I suppose I wouldn't really "want to" see them make a deal like I mentioned for a hitter like Butler unless they satisfied some other needs first (through free agency, as I suggested), and would be using a deal like this one as a major add-on for the purpose of immediate contention.
I just want them to contend... and if continuing to be patient is the way to do it, so be it... although I'd have to guess a lot of fans (both of the casual and the more informed variety) are beginning to get impatient. 8-)
What deals would you make that would net us some excellent hitters?
|21. By: jazon_24 on 11-16-2012 14:02:38|
Thoughts on Hultzen and change for Wil Myers and change?
|22. By: DMac33 on 11-16-2012 14:42:18|
For anybody that thinks that teams are going to hold the Mariners over the barrel for hitting, the same can be said in reverse for Kansas City with pitching. It's what makes them such a great match on the trade front.
The only hesitation that I would have in picking up Butler is if you don't feel like you can get either him or Montero to play 1B for you.
My guess is that by early 2014 at the latest, Zunino will be ready for the bigs. If I had the ability to do what I'd want, I'd want Zunino/Montero to be versed in playing both C and 1B such that they switch out for each other - thereby allowing both of their impact bats to stay in the lineup while not getting overly taxed behind the plate ... I'm thinking something along the lines of 100-110 games for Zunino behind the plate and 40-60 for Montero. To make that happen, Montero or Butler need to be able to play 1B at least at a relatively decent level.
I'm not against trading one of the big arms in the minors simply because of the fact that assuming that you keep Felix to head the rotation, you are never going to be able to keep them all together forever as their salaries skyrocket (unless the Mariners aspire to spend $200M per year).
Get an impact bat via trade, get an impact bat via free agency, bring Franklin up to the bigs, and work at getting guys slotted to the right spots in the lineup. There's no reason this team can't be a .500 team next year.
|23. By: Rudolf on 11-16-2012 15:35:22|
Our farm is going to pay huge dividends over the next five to ten years. We can't be stupid and ship it off in an off-season or two. Guys like Miller, Marder, Romero, Walker, Proscia, Carson Smith, etc., can spend the next two years on the minors if we need them to. Hell, longer. Franklin, Hultzen, Zunino all have places in the big league line-up by 2014. If we must package a few of them together to get us an offensive upgrade, fine, but let's not be hasty. One pitcher, a middle infielder, a lower levels player and a bullpen guy like Kelley, Pryor, Capps, etc. should fetch us something very nice. The M's have to use this farm to keep the team rolling for the next decade, so they should protect it. In the meantime lets BUY some talent on the open market! SPEND THE MONEY!
|24. By: pwhit44 on 11-16-2012 15:53:11|
I don't understand the fascination with trading for Bill Butler. I love his bat, too. But, for me, and I assume for the Mariners as well, Butler and Montero cannot coexist long-term on this roster. Period.
Do we know, without question, that Butler can play first base every day for the duration of his contract? I'm guessing not. Montero can't. If Montero is ever able to play a passable first base in anything but an absolute emergency, I will eat poopoo for breakfast every day. It's not going to happen. He is a DH and part-time catcher, at most. That is his ceiling defensively.
Trading for Butler spells the end of Montero's Mariners career at least by 2014. If we can flip Montero for a comparable outfield bat, great!
I get that people like Butler. So do I. But the Mariners don't need to DH's. Butler doesn't fit this roster unless you move Montero.
|25. By: VikingArthur on 11-16-2012 16:16:37|
Here is something I makes sense for both teams...
Mariners send Montero and Paxton/Hultzen for Butler and Myers. After spending a year watching Montero... I don't see a pre-2011 Butler ceiling. I see a 6 hitter... with slight above average power. Perhaps a 280/340/440 guy. Not bad at all...but not a true MOTO bat. This deal would clear quite a bit of money for KC, get them a frontline arm and would give the Mariners the offensive core of Butler, Myers, Seager, Ackley, etc.
Feasible? Who says no?
|26. By: VikingArthur on 11-16-2012 16:22:09|
For the record... I see Butler as a perennial .300, 30 HR, .850-925 OPS guy. I don't think he has reached his ceiling. Hell...he may have a 1.000 OPS season in him. Montero? Best season will be Butler's average from 2009-2011 at best. That is my take anyway. I think Montero was the classic overrated Yankee prospect. He's a nice piece...but not remotely a franchise cornerstone. Add in that Butler CAN (not very well...but passably) play 1b and its a slam dunk.
|27. By: sexymarinersfan on 11-16-2012 16:28:14|
I wouldn't even say he's passable. I'd say he's an emergency 1B like Edgar was, or he'd have more value.
|28. By: VikingArthur on 11-16-2012 16:35:15|
Even if Butler is not a part time 1b, I still do this trade in a heartbeat and I do think this trade benefits both teams and is workable.
Butler's dWar was -1.4 in 2010 as a near full time 1b. I don't think that is atrocious at all. If he could be -1.0-2.0 as a full time 1b for the M's I'd play him 110-120 games a year. It is not like we have had top notch 1b defense for the last couple of years. If the Mariners are ever going to be good again and be able to score runs, we are going to have to overlook substandard defense at non-premium positions.
|29. By: DMac33 on 11-16-2012 16:41:38|
I think you are being super harsh on Montero ... I don't know if any of us know what his true ceiling is. What I do know is that he played a full major league season last year at 22 and was doing so while adjusting to playing catcher at the major league level. He had his ups and downs ... which is fine considering that he's a young prospect getting his feet wet.
On the surface, he put forward a .260/.386/.684 BA/Slg/OPS split last year. Definitely not a world beater - but the .260 average did lead the squad in those that qualified for the batting title.
A look a layer deeper shows something that I think is worth getting excited about. Take Justin Smoak as an example. One of his biggest struggles as a hitter at the big league level is that he just flat out strikes out too much. I think too many today write off the strikeout as being just another form of an out. I look at is as a sign of whether or not a hitter actually is comfortable adjusting to the pitching that he is seeing. As a hitter becomes more comfortable, he becomes more confident. The more confident he is the better the results will be. Before the All-Star break last year, Montero struck out 67 times in 274 ABs (a rate of a K every 4.1 ABs) while walking just 14 times. After the All Star break, Montero struck out just 32 times in 241 ABs (a rate of a K every 7.5 ABs) while walking 15 times. In my mind, any time a young hitter starts making the transition to lowering his K rate and increasing his BB rate, he's starting to figure it out. It's not a shock that his OPS increased by almost 60 points after the All-Star break.
And BTW, the last Yankee catcher that I recall making any kind of noise coming up through their system was Posada. He didn't have a comparable number of ABs to Montero until Posada was 27 years old. I think he turned out to be ok. Sometimes we just need to remember that Montero is still really really young and he'll have some lumps here and there. But he's already showing signs of "getting it" and it definitely wouldn't shock me if he put up somewhere in the neighborhood of a .750-.800 OPS season this year.
|30. By: Rudolf on 11-16-2012 17:14:54|
Yeah, #26, I don't agree. Butler had a nice year last year, but he wasn't that special the previous three. He's kind of a fat guy, which probably only gets worse. He's lousy at 1B and runs no better than Montero. My guess is Montero figures it out at the plate over the next year or two and bests Butler's numbers at a much lower $$ cost, as well as prospect cost.
|31. By: Rudolf on 11-16-2012 17:15:49|
And I don't think the Royals take that deal.
|32. By: SLOmariner on 11-16-2012 21:59:12|
Last year our OF put up a grand total of 5.5 WAR if I'm doing my math right according to fangraphs. I'm not sure it's time to go "all in", but if we can sign Swisher, and bite the bullet to trade for a Gordon or Upton type, we're pretty close to contending I would think. Assuming we get 4 WAR out of the new corner OF's, Condor puts up 2.5 WAR and our 4th adds another 1 (Casper added 1.2 last year) were up 6 wins right there.
At that point we're basically betting that Montero and Smoak can put up 2 WAR apiece, and we're at the 10 win improvement Dave Cameron mentions as needed to contend.
This leaves me with two big question marks..... If we're really going for it, can we land a surefire 2+ Win 1B with upside? (Maybe Smoak can figure it out... but....Smoak) And secondly, what are we willing to give up to land the Gordon type? Paxton, Franklin + pieces and I'm in. I'd deal Walker if it keeps Franklin based on JAC's thoughts that he can stick at SS.
Thoughts? Outbursts? Complaints that I used WAR as a quick and dirty assessment?
|33. By: Rudolf on 11-16-2012 22:17:22|
I agree ^. Not that I know jack s--t.
Not really sure how "competitive" we would be... if you figure we make the upgrades you've mentioned PLUS we could also squeeze a few extra WAR from someone besides Blake Beaven, a full season of Ramirez and Iwakuma, a possible Hultzen appearance or SP signing like Dempster/McCarthy, we could really surprise some people. The design makes perfect sense. Now we need to step up and buy an outfielder like Swisher. After Jack Z's remarks about Hamilton today I'm a little less enthusiastic about our chances.
I would hate to see us empty half of our top ten prospects to land two guys we could have spent the money to get otherwise in FA.
|34. By: rjfrik on 11-16-2012 22:47:15|
Ok. This is going to be a rant!!
God Damn it!!! The one guy I wanted the M's to get, Melky Cabrera, signs with Toronto. I'm sorry but I have a really hard time believing that he wouldn't of signed with the M's for the same offer or even an offer of 2 years 17 million. We have money to spend. SPEND IT!! Cabrera immediately upgrades a position of need and it does so without surrendering the 12th pick in the damn draft. Jesus I don't get it. Are they trying to grab Hamilton or Swisher and punt the 12th pick for a guy on the wrong side of 30 and someone they will have to completely overpay for? Cabrera is a cheap gamble. Testosterone was not the reason he hit the cover off the ball. You could of got the NL batting champion for peanuts. I just don't get it. He would have been my number one target. I would of gave him 9 million a year. Why. Because he is that good.
|35. By: SLOmariner on 11-17-2012 00:24:06|
And therein lies the big roster construction question. We have the start of a young core on the team now. Ackley, Seager, Montero, Saunders, and Zunino on the way. IF we had to gut the top end of our system and lose Paxton, Hultzen, Wilhelmsen, Miller, etc. to land a legit corner OF and 1B, how long does it take us to rebuild that depth in the system?
|36. By: pwhit44 on 11-17-2012 01:03:59|
Since Stanton isn't going to get traded, let's play the hypothetical Stanton game!
Eliminate Felix. Start with Walker. Where do you go from there?? How far can your stomach take you?!
I think the base is Walker-Hultzen-Montero.
But how much more is required? I don't know! This is a fun game!
I would add Capps, but it would be hard to stomach more out of the M's top ten. After that, just spare parts in the system or off the major league roster.
Walker-Hultzen-Montero-Capps plus random stuff is surely not enough. But it doesn't matter, because it won't happen anyway! It's just a game!
Thanks for participating. And, sorry...
|37. By: foster4 on 11-17-2012 08:15:36|
Could Corey Hart be a trade option since he plays OF and 1B and has 1/10 left on his contract or will the brewers want too much because they are trying to compete in 2013?
|38. By: rotoenquire on 11-17-2012 08:23:38|
MLB Hot Stove News: Tulo and Cargo are not on the trading block, Cabrera is with the Blue Jays and JackZ, say's there not really in the running for Hamilton.
That being said. I really don't see a ton of AWESOME!! fits for the M's in the F/A market.
Catcher: Naploi and Martin have been suggested neither will cost a draft pick. However with Zunino at most a year away and Jaso proving he belongs unless there looking at a 2 year deal neither will be in Seattle
Firs Base: Nick Swisher, would cost a draft pick and is a team guy. He can also play a corner OF spot. But he is not worth the 12th overall pick.
Second Base: Emmanuel Burriss could be a bench add and cheap.
Shortstop: We have Ryan one of the best defenders in Baseball. And Franklin is not that far off.
Third Base: No F/A is any kind of upgrade.
Left Field: Delmon Young will not cost a draft pick and has not been talked about a great deal.
Center Field: Angel Pagan and Shane Victorino both can hustle and are good club house guys. Also would not cost a draft pick.
Right Field: Again Swisher pops up, But is he would the draft pick?
Starting Pitchers: The M's have a ton on the way, however I believe some of it maybe traded and adding a couple veteran arms could be a plus. Dallas Braden once a rising prospect, injuries set him back. Zack Greinke will cost but a back too back combo of Felix and Grienke would be solid. Dan Heran Could be a solid bounce back player to get and a good price. Brandon McCarthy has some of the best stuff around, injuries are always a problem. Francisco Liriano look at what the M's are getting out of Perez could they get the same from Liriano?
Relief Pitchers: Just a couple names to list. Collin Balester, Kyle McClellan, Juan Carlos Oviedo, Dana Eveland, J.P. Howell all could be solid adds. But Howell too me would be a great get.
Of all this Jason, what makes the most sense in a not so perfect M's fan world?
|39. By: sexymarinersfan on 11-17-2012 08:30:37|
We don't know what Melky's terms were. He might not have even been considering the M's. For all we know, Jack Z could've picked up the phone, called his agent and have him said he's not interested in playing anywhere but for a contender. With that being said its looking more and more like the M's are going to have to pull off a substantial trade if they hope to acquire any kind of decent bat that this offense DESERVES!! I love JackZ, and I know he's looking, but something has got to get done this winter or else the fans are going to cry havoc come next Opening Day!!
|40. By: VikingArthur on 11-17-2012 09:52:20|
I think it is funny when people say "He was only wanting to play for a contender". That is nonsensical. If we would have offered Melky 3 years/25 or 2 years/19 he would have signed with us. It is about money... 99% of the time. And we should have... it is super frustrating that we didn't get in on Melky. Of course, the "protect my children, public safety soccer mom and dad" Mariners fans would have been up in arms. Too bad they don't show up anymore. Melky was the obvious choice.
|41. By: maqman on 11-17-2012 11:04:04|
If we trade some arms or just want some pitching depth at the back end of the rotation then add Chris Young to Joe Blanton and Scott Feldman as cheap available free agents with some upside pitching in Safeco. Young is a free agent who posted a 4.15 ERA while starting in 20 games last season for the New York Mets. He was signed to a minor league contract at the beginning of 2012 and started all 20 games after June 5th. He posted a 2.73 ERA in 5 starts in the final month of the season.
Fangraphs just posted Bill James projections and he likes Erasmo Ramirez quite a bit according to Fangraphs Mike Newton who says "a 3.52 FIP projection is pretty solid." He's a keeper.
|42. By: Rudolf on 11-17-2012 12:53:49|
@36: I don't think I could stomach any trade involving Walker. His ceiling is so high and he's already good enough to hang in a major league rotation-- albeit toward the back at this stage in his development. I envision Felix and Walker back-to-back leading us through the playoffs in 2016 and beyond. Nothing is more valuable than an ace, and there are so few guys that can become legitimate aces. That said, I could go Ackley, Montero, Paxton, Capps. With all the middle infield depth on the farm Ackley is destined to be traded. Too bad he stunk last year.
@41: I don't want another cheap ass Joe Blanton type starter in the rotation unless we trade Vargas and need to fill a spot. Spend 2/20 on a #2 guy like Dempster/Marcum and make the rotation a stronghold for the team. Felix/Dempster/Iwakuma/Vargas/Ramirez is a damn good rotation. Find an offensive upgrade or two--swisher, victorino, gordon-- expect a player or two to improve--smoak, ackley, montero, ryan--and the team will be substantially better than last year. We don't need a top-half offense if our pitching is first rate, see San Francisco.
|43. By: rotoenquire on 11-17-2012 12:59:33|
If the M's sign Napoli and or Swisher. Smoak is no longer an M. Heck no on Blanton I would not touch him, only reason I mentioned in my post Liriano is he has such a good arm, maybe bullep time could be a good thing.
|44. By: sexymarinersfan on 11-17-2012 15:32:19|
"If we would have offered Melky 3 years/25 or 2 years/19 he would have signed with us."
Really? Because I think it's hilarious when "people" think that Melky would sign such a low deal for any more than a single given year. I think that Cabrera and his agent missed on this one. Why not sign a 1-year deal and try to re-establish your value, and then try and go after a big payday next year. To think that Melky would've signed for such a low amount over more than a year is questionable. But then again he did sign a 2-year deal. If I was Cabrera I'd have rather taken a 2-year $16 million to sign with a contender over a 2 years and $19 million for a team that's resided in the bottom of the AL West the last decade.
|45. By: Panhead55 on 11-17-2012 16:33:29|
Melky also needs to re-establish his value while testing clean. Safeco's new dimensions don't necessarily make it a hitters park. Toronto's park is hitter friendly and the line up will offer protection from top to bottom, making it difficult for opposing pitchers to ever find their rhythm. Toronto should make way more sense to Melky than Seattle. I agree with sexymariner, I'm surprised Melky signed for two years instead of one. He stood to make more money by accepting a one year deal and having a good season. Maybe the two years was at the insistence of Toronto and playing in the Toronto lineup and park was too good to pass up.
|46. By: Edman on 11-17-2012 17:32:02|
Ehhh, didn't sign Melky, a cheater that knew he was breaking the rules. Character matters.
|47. By: rocketdawg31 on 11-17-2012 20:02:22|
It's a gut feeling and nothing more- but I think the M's could be in on Angel Pagan.
Doesn't cost a draft pick. Switch-hitter. Okay glove and range in center, not great. Can steal a base. Solid citizen, World Series ring. Probably decent in the clubhouse, if that matters.
And probably a better OPS guy and hitter for average than anyone else we have right now. Even if his power is so-so, hell...he brings a lot to the table on a team like ours.
The more I see him, the more I'm a fan of this guy. We could do a lot worse than him.
|48. By: dewey on 11-17-2012 22:48:26|
I have to laugh a little we where on Hamilton for what 1 day and now we have people talk about character what is Hamiltons character?
|49. By: Marco on 11-18-2012 01:03:08|
Any FA's who signs elsewhere would have not been a good deal for the Mariners. Any player signed by the Mariners is great deal. GMZ is always right - except maybe when he's surprised by how quickly other GM's are moving:
"...With Melky, they [Blue Jays] were very aggressive and that one moved quickly."
|50. By: short on 11-18-2012 08:56:27|
I continue to feel that the M's shouldn't start trading future production for current production just yet. Jack Z. implied something like this in saying he was very hesitant to sign an FA that cost a draft pick.
The M's need the first few months of the 2013 season to find out if this core group is ready to take the next step in production. Ackley, Montero, Saunders, Smoak, Seager and the top prospects in the organization need to show that by adding a few free agents, they can form the heart of a contending team. Trading away any of our prospects now for a veteran player who won't be with the team more than a couple of years is jumping the gun, in my opinion.
If the M's can receive quality prospects in return, on the other hand, that might be smart. Trading our nearly-ready pitching for a nearly-ready outfielder or a natural third baseman is the kind of deal I hope they do make. I want to get back players with five or six years of team control.
|51. By: maqman on 11-18-2012 10:57:29|
With all the badmouthing of the Marlins by Stanton for gutting the team he just might be made available for a nice package. It should be worth JZ making a call. Anyone not named Felix should be available.
|52. By: Panhead55 on 11-18-2012 11:06:30|
Anyone, including Felix, should be available for Stanton.
|53. By: Edman on 11-18-2012 12:08:53|
Miami isn't trading Stanton until they have to, so wipe the drool off your faces.
|54. By: Rudolf on 11-18-2012 12:10:13|
Ackley, Seager, Paxton, Vargas, Fernandez for Moustakas and Meyers. Maybe KC throws in a little extra. Who says no?
|55. By: davelee99 on 11-18-2012 12:37:23|
Scratch Justin Upton. Apparently Upton, according to John Heyman, has recently placed Seattle on his "no trade" list.
|56. By: MarinerCoug on 11-18-2012 14:37:03|
Rudolf- KC says no. If the Ms replaced Fernandez with Walker, it might get interesting, but probably not even then.
|57. By: Rudolf on 11-18-2012 15:10:36|
I would be surprised if KC bit on something like that, but it meets their needs. Walker is too good to ship out IMO. He's ours. Maybe Ackley + Paxton gets us Moustakas? Not sure if that would be smart or not.
And as for Upton, why would he ever want to play in Seattle? Safeco would neuter him ala Beltre.
|58. By: studentofthegame on 11-18-2012 17:37:53|
I think we should trade Felix to the Denver Broncos for Peyton Manning.
|59. By: Rudolf on 11-18-2012 18:21:19|
assholes are awesome
|60. By: amac360 on 11-18-2012 20:47:31|
Am I the only one very confused why Ackley and Montero are being discussed in trades? Yeah they had bad years this season, but the potential is still very high. Ackley could very well hit .290/.360/.400 next year..
Bill James has Montero at .285/.337/.466 next year, and he isn't even 23 yet! We have these guys for free right now, and I doubt Jack is thinking of selling low on them. Montero probably going to be putting up Billy Butler numbers as soon as 2014. You at least have to give him next year to see what he can do.
|61. By: studentofthegame on 11-18-2012 21:20:04|
You are kinda rude Rudy. I was just poking fun at how desperate that our team is to find a star.
Anyway, I hope that the M's get something going soon. It seems like teams doing early shopping are finding some decent deals.
Getting Hamilton is nonsense for his asking price. Maybe the winter meetings will give us another 12 player zinger this year.
|62. By: sexymarinersfan on 11-18-2012 21:54:42|
Agreed amac, but if you tried to debate every nonsensical rosterbated idea, you'd get a little bored. Ackley isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The M's wouldn't ship him unless they think they could trade him at his peak value, which I don't even know why they'd even do that in the first place.
|63. By: Rudolf on 11-18-2012 23:53:47|
Hey, I'm not typically the first guy to rosterbate all over the place, but there are some intriguing matches out there, especially with the Royals, and tis the season. Ackley is conceivably redundant with guys like Franklin, Miller, Seager, Romero, Marder. He could very well turn it around in 2013 and I hope he does. Still, to obtain the star for which we are all so desperate, Ackley's position is filled the quickest and easiest from the farm, (or the other side of the diamond). Jack Z keeps pointing to trades as an answer to fixing the roster, why not speculate a little bit. Seems the the appropriate time. Ackley seems like an appropriate piece to move.
And I'm not rude. I just sense a troll when one pops up it's head with nothing to add to the conversation.
|64. By: Gibbo on 11-19-2012 00:22:15|
I do agree that the Royals are the best fit or maybe we do soemthing with the Twins. I can see why Ackley would be discussed but we would be trading low on him which I dont think would be GMZ's typical MO.
I kind of hope we see a guys like Bevan, Paxton, Maurer, Miller, Furbush, Romero, Marder, Kelly, Carp, Wells or Thames dealt.
I know I am trying to keep some of the cream but given the strength of our farm I would hope that Paxton, Maurer and Miller with some fringy guys like Furbush, Beavan, Kelly and say Wells should be enough to get something decent back.
|65. By: TRAgnew on 11-19-2012 08:49:24|
I keep getting access denied when I try to enter the restrictive area.
|66. By: Edman on 11-19-2012 11:55:43|
Furbush fringy? Color me amazed by that comment.
|67. By: jgstecker on 11-19-2012 12:17:22|
If Wil Myers is indeed in play, there's no one on the farm I wouldn't trade for him.
Walker and Franklin/Miller? Vargas if KC wants him. Erasmo if they want big league ready young pitching.
I might even give up Ackley if I had to in the right deal.
|68. By: Edman on 11-19-2012 12:47:35|
Do not forget. Once, Ackley was as high or higher rated than Wil Myers. Giving up on Ackley after one full season? Remember minor league player of the year, Jeremy Reed?
Sorry, I'm not willing to give up on Ackley so quickly.
|69. By: Shawnuel on 11-19-2012 20:20:13|
I don't disagree with you but, with a fairly large glut of possibilities at the middle infield positions (yes....I realize they are unproven) on the farm, it might serve Jack well to run Ackley up the flagpole and see what is available. Personally, I agree that we need to wait a year. Then, if he has a bounce back year, and Romero, Franklin, Miller etc. continue their steady ascent, I'd be willing to see if we could get a BIG bopper type for Ackley. Or, if one of the farmhands REALLY tears it up, dangle him instead.
|70. By: Docmilo on 11-23-2012 12:20:00|
Edman, it's not giving up on Ackley to trade him. If you can improve the overall team by moving your 2nd baseman, do so. Romero is a 30 homer bat and can play 2nd or 3rd. I would rather move Romero to third and Seager to 2nd. Seager is lighter and quicker and will give you better up the middle D. If you take the name off the jerseys and just look at value, moving Ackley would be a great way to improve. I'm still hoping for a move of something like Ackley, Carp, Montero, plus to TB, TB sends Hellickson to KC and we get Butler. Then I still want the M's to go after Hamilton or Grienke... doens't matter who. Adding Butler and Hamilton to this offense makes the M's contenders immediately.
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