| By Alex Carson |  | By 11-27-2012 |
Something we haven't got into much was the Seattle Mariners recent trade for infielder Robert Andino. While the cost to acquire Andino was low, the cost to retain him is not.
Arbitration eligible for the second time, Andino is due for a raise that could see his salary reach around $2.5 million. It's no unrealistic to see it go all the way to $3 million. Couple that with Brendan Ryan's pending pay raise and the M's are looking at a commitment of $5-6 million between the two.
That's not really the cost I was alluding to, however.
Certainly, Andino is an improvement over Munenori Kawasaki as a backup infielder who can play shortstop. While Andino isn't a star with the glove or the bat, depth need was present for the club.
So, you might ask, what's the big deal? Andino simply replaced Chone Figgins on the roster, right?
Not quite.
With the salaries of Ryan and Andino you've got a couple players who wouldn't simply be tossed overboard -- the way Kawasaki could have been -- should Nick Franklin earn a promotion early in the season.
While there are plenty of folks who aren't high on Franklin's chances of sticking at short, the club isn't going to move him off the position to be Dustin Ackley's backup. And, no, Ackley isn't moving to the outfield.
Blocking one of your top prospects that costs you nearly nothing to play with a mediocre player making a few million bucks just doesn't pass the sniff test for me. Andino, with Ryan in tow and Franklin waiting in the wings, simply doesn't provide much more than a player making the league minimum.
The team could, however, have visions of including Ryan or Franklin in a trade package. While a potential trade partner may not think too highly of Franklin's future at shortstop, they may be thrilled to to acquire Ryan's defensive strengths, making both players options to be moved.
If Franklin is traded, the club would need someone to backup the injury prone Ryan. Andino, while more expensive, is a better option than Carlos Triunfel right now. With Franklin gone, the team may be more inclined to have a veteran around.
If Ryan were to be dealt, having that same experienced guy around to help ease Franklin in seems like something in which manager Eric Wedge might find value as the team tries to transition out of play-the-kids mode and get back into contention.
Teams like the New York Yankees, Boston Red Sox, Tampa Bay Rays and Cleveland Indians could all be fits to acquire Ryan depending how the rest of their off-seasons shake out.
There's also the possibility that the Mariners could give Ryan a two-year deal with lower annual payments.
The ultimate value of adding Andino will come down to what the Mariners do with the other two shortstops at the top of their depth chart.
If all three of Ryan, Andino and Franklin are Mariners come spring, it won't be a massive problem, but I think it'll be an indication that something went wrong with the their off-season plans.
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Comments
The following 122 comment(s) for this article are shown below:
| 1. By: Paul Martin on 11-28-2012 05:58:19 I think Franklin is a year away, and more of a 2nd base prospect. Truinfel is playing winter ball and only batting .177. Don't think Carlos Triunfel has a future in the big leagues. I think Franklin might get traded, but only in the right deal. I think Ryan sticks around at least one more year. |
| 2. By: dewey on 11-28-2012 06:49:12 One thing i dont get the Mariners keep saying Franklin is a SS but they allways play him at second what gives? |
| 3. By: bakomariner on 11-28-2012 07:48:43 I think that if the Mariners are out of it at the deadline, and the Yankees are in it, we will see Ryan in pinstripes. The Yankees are the PERFECT team for him as he is the best defensive SS in the leage but can't hit...they don't need his bat. The Mariners get a couple role playing prospects and bring up Franklin IF he's ready. If not, Andino could finish the season as the starter. |
| 4. By: bakomariner on 11-28-2012 07:48:43 I think that if the Mariners are out of it at the deadline, and the Yankees are in it, we will see Ryan in pinstripes. The Yankees are the PERFECT team for him as he is the best defensive SS in the leage but can't hit...they don't need his bat. The Mariners get a couple role playing prospects and bring up Franklin IF he's ready. If not, Andino could finish the season as the starter. |
| 5. By: bakomariner on 11-28-2012 07:49:09 Sorry for the double post... |
| 6. By: JonathanAicardi on 11-28-2012 07:55:03 Guys like Andino can't entirely be valued in terms of WAR vs. $'s. The point is that he plays all over the field and does so pretty well. It's not an exciting talent, but it's not a common one either and since Ryan and Ackley have been so bad with the bat, I have to think Andino gets a decent amount of time. Considering we don't have a league minimum player able to do that, Andino is it. It's about a $2M dollar sink for someone who might produce exactly that much value. But it could be worse. It's 50/50 that Franklin is even ready by June anyway. |
| 7. By: Rudolf on 11-28-2012 08:27:22 Let Franklin take an entire year in AAA to work on his defense and figure out the pitching. Perhaps he should junk the switch hitting, too. No need to rush him with Ryan holding down SS. |
| 8. By: sexymarinersfan on 11-28-2012 08:51:49 It'd be crazy to trade the best defensive SS in all of baseball for a couple of role players without a proven back up. Andino comes no where close to Ryan's value. The UZR that Brendan has is by far and away the best in the big leagues. He's also a team captain on this squad and has made the infield so much better defensively. I don't see Ryan going anywhere unless we've got a solution at SS FULL time to take over. His salary is manageable and he's not locked into a long term contract. Andino serves as a role for Kawasaki that Munenori was not capable of filling. Robert can play SS as well as other multiple positions and has a better hit tool. He'll spell Ryan here and there to give him a break, but don't expect Andino to be our full time SS anytime soon. |
| 9. By: jgstecker on 11-28-2012 09:26:17 I don't see Andino having much impact on Franklin or Ryan's situation. The team needs a backup 2B/SS and that's Andino's job regardless of who the everyday SS is. I also don't think Andino will get much of a raise. He knows he was a heartbeat away from a non-tender in Baltimore and there isn't much precedent for backup infielders to make that much money in arbitration. I don't think Franklin can push Ryan out of the SS job this year. If Ryan gets hurt, then maybe Franklin gets to take over. Or if Ryan is dealt this summer it could open up a job for Franklin. We've seen Ryan struggle offensively and his defense more than makes up for it. It probably won't be an excuse to call up Franklin and probably won't get him benched. Does seeing the words "Ryan" and "Franklin" so close together make anyone else shudder? |
| 10. By: Jackson on 11-28-2012 09:35:22 dewey, Nick Franklin played second base in the AFL because he had to. Each club gets to designate a player that has to play everyday at a position. The Mariners designated Zunino. Cincinnati picked Didi Gregorius and he plays shortstop. |
| 11. By: Jerry on 11-28-2012 09:36:03 I don't see a subplot here. I don't think Andino will get a big arbitration raise, and Ryan isn't expensive. I'd guess the three middle infield guys will cost about 6 million total, which is actually a good value. Franklin could get traded, but I think that decision will be based more on the M's needs than clearing out a logjam in the middle infield. Franklin held his own in Tacoma last year, but it's not like spending half the year there is a waste of his time. He still needs to work on hitting RH and defense. He's only 22, so there is no hurry. It's worth giving him a good chunk of 2013 to work on sticking at SS. If Franklin can stick at SS, he's a very valuable player. The M's have Brad Miller likely starting off in AA next year, which is good depth. In all likelihood, one of those two will be the M's starting SS in 2014. Depth like that is good. |
| 12. By: Edman on 11-28-2012 09:40:00 I remember a time when we use to look at how a player use to play the game, and their value to the team as a whole. I hate WAR, because it tries to paint everyone with the same brush. When did we move from admiring a player for their ability to contribute as a player, to worrying about "value"? Not every player has to have some apparent value to be a good move. If the M's can't afford Andino's salary, then how are they going to possibly bid for a top free agent? God I hate WAR, and the way it is abused and used as the "ONLY" way to assess a player's value. |
| 13. By: Jason A. Churchill on 11-28-2012 10:04:45 Edman, It's not about being able to afford both Ryan and Andino, it's about the M's possibly preferring to allocate their dollars elsewhere. Two gloves at short that don't hit for $6 million? Doesn't make a lot of sense. Jerry, Andino WILL get a significant raise in arbitration because it's based largely on service time, not performance. The fact that he didn't put up big numbers won't hurt him much. He'll get a 75-125% raise. The M's can try to curb some of that with he and/or Ryan by locking him into a two-year deal or something, but Andino going to be at 2.5-3 million. |
| 14. By: Alex Carson on 11-28-2012 10:12:54 @Paul Martin - You could be right about Franklin's ETA and position. If the team agrees, I think that means they'd look to move him. He's not going to come up as a backup to Ackley and Ackley isn't moving to the OF. Or, so I believe. @dewey - It's common for middle infield prospects to play both positions, unless the guy is a hands down shortstop (and there aren't usually many of those). Especially in the AFL, it happens. Don't read too much into it. And, also, see what Jackson said. @bakomariner - Good point. If the M's feel Franklin needs until June, they could plan it that way. It's not like Ryan is going to turn into an offensive stud. So as long as he stays healthy, his trade value should be similar (or perhaps higher if they sign him to a cheap two-year deal). @sexymarinersfan - I don't think the M's are seeking to just dump Ryan for fodder. It's likely more of a Nick Franklin thing should they trade Ryan. Ryan isn't going to be a backup, so if they feel Franklin can handle SS, Ryan would be squeezed out. @Edman and JonathanAicardi - This wasn't simply a WAR thing. I didn't mention it because I see this as more of an issue of having too many pieces blocking Franklin. I just think that you don't bring another guy making that much over league minimum unless another part is moving, be it Ryan or Franklin. Thanks for the comments, everyone. Keep the discussions flowing. We love it. |
| 15. By: safecochatter on 11-28-2012 11:07:24 i think what you see is what you get. Franklin stays in Tacoma and Andino is the 2.5 million utility. Nothing wrong with that, unless it stops the M's from making another move because of payroll. It's just an expensive insurance policy. Besides if you want to run with big dogs... |
| 16. By: Rudolf on 11-28-2012 11:11:01 The Mariners have historically rushed their prospects and what good has it done them? I look at a team like Tampa Bay or Saint Louis as the benchmark for prospect management. Their guys tend to be successful when they reach the big leagues because they allow them to climb the minor league ladder one step at a time. Sometimes they play in part-time or reserve roles with the club for a year or two before they get their chance to start. This is made possible because they have depth in the organization top-to-bottom. We have Brendan Ryan for the entire year, why not get every last drop out of him? He's a fantastic shortstop regardless of his bat, he probably doesn't have much trade value, and no one is banging down the door to supplant him. If Nick Franklin is busting the seams off the ball in AAA for five months exactly how will that hurt his development? He has several things to work on. I could see a case for giving Franklin a September call-up, but not much else. And for all we know Miller will pass him on the depth chart by June. If the M's are screwing their budget by "wasting" 2.5 million dollars on a back-up SS/2B/3B/OF (Andino) then I don't know what to say about our franchise. Ugh. |
| 17. By: dewey on 11-28-2012 11:32:47 #10 I went to 7 Rainers games and he played 2nd every game thats why im asking if he is our topped ranked SS prospect why didnt he play there all the time? I never saw him play SS once? |
| 18. By: Edman on 11-28-2012 11:37:30 I agree, Rudolf. I can't believe that paying Andino will somehow sink the Mariner ship. We lived with two years with a $9 million a year utility player. I'm a firm believer that you can't cheap out on every position that you feel is supplemental. Ryan does not have a great history of staying healthy for a full season. I think that investment in someone like Andino, who could get 250+ AB, who won't hurt the offense as badly as we've seen in the recent past, it money well spent. |
| 19. By: JonathanAicardi on 11-28-2012 11:45:47 My point was Andino does not block Franklin. I don't see any way in which that's the case because he'll be serving a role very distinct from everyday SS. We're talking about a late defensive or injury replacement who occasionally starts or pinch-hits. I understand that $2.5 mil is steep relative to the role but defensively, Andino is better than most and that might be the league/market in which we're playing. Willie Bloomquist was given about 2M/year a couple years ago to do the same for Arizona. He happened to hit afterward but the point is that teams have to have a guy like that. If you have one laying around, great. But if not, you just have to sign or trade for one. Baltimore just happened to be in the mood to take a backup outfielder for in return. What you don't want is to bring Franklin into that role. The way I see it, the only thing in the way of Franklin's ascent to starting SS is himself and Ryan's final year. |
| 20. By: masonb on 11-28-2012 12:09:12 I have a somewhat related question to this discussion: Is there any talk of perhaps having Franklin abandon switch hitting? And if so, is there any way to predict how his numbers could be impacted if he starts having to face LHP from the left side of the plate? I'm just wondering if there are any previous examples of switch hitters abandoning one side of the plate. I thought that maybe Jose Valentin did this a few years back but I honestly can't recall. Thanks in advance |
| 21. By: pwhit44 on 11-28-2012 12:26:31 I agree completely with the premise of this post. One thing that has come to mind recently... Is it possible we're looking at this situation from the wrong angle? Is it possible the Mariners like Franklin better than they do Ackley, and that another team, or several teams are interested in Ackley as part of a trade? I don't know, obviously, but I wonder how far Ackley's value has dropped. I would see it as selling low, but is his value really that low, even after 2012? I think the previous post addressed this a bit already. But I wonder if the M's see Franklin as their 2B of the future and want to find a good fit for Ackley somewhere else. Not suggesting that's smart, or even probable. Just as a possibility of what the M's might be thinking. Who knows. |
| 22. By: short on 11-28-2012 12:32:17 The Mariners ought to hang onto Franklin at least until the trade deadline this year to see if Ackley can turn things around at the plate. I love Ackley a lot, but he'll be 25 next year and doesn't have much more time to prove he can at least post a decent batting line. If he isn't showing much and Franklin is hitting well in AAA the team will have an interesting choice to make about who to keep. But giving up Franklin too soon could create a hole there that could only be filled by moving Seager, leaving another hole at 3B where the organization has no good prospects. Maybe Romero? There's always Brad Miller, but if he can stick at shortstop and provide run production there, moving him to second reduces his value. I'm very curious to see if he doesn't start at SS in AAA this year with Franklin at second. Both deserve to be at AAA based on AA performance, and Miller is a college pick and is older than Franklin. He could be ready to come up. If Franklin is at SS in Tacoma and Miller stays in Jackson that's even more pressure to move someone by June as Miller will be seriously pushing to come up, I expect. |
| 23. By: Paul Martin on 11-28-2012 17:53:23 BJ Upton just signs with Atlanta. 5 years for 75 million. I heard he only considered East Coast teams, and never heard Seattle connected to him. He would have looked good in our outfield. Even if he would have considered Seattle we would have had to spend a lot more than that to get him here. He is only 28 years and should be productive the entire contract. This gives you an idea where the market is now. Jason, if Upton goes for 5/75 what is the magic number for Hamilton or Swisher? |
| 24. By: Paul Martin on 11-28-2012 18:06:11 Are we going to spend $$$ on a free agent this year? Jack said Hamilton was going to be too expensive. I have not heard a single rumor we are in on Swisher. I think Napoli is just using us to leverage more money out of Boston. I woul love to sign Greinke, and trade pitching prospects for hitting, but again I have heard ZERO rumors connecting us to him. I also doubt we could outbid the two LA teams for his services... So where does this leave us on the free agent market? Either we pick up payroll via a trade or we wait until next year when the free agent market looks deeper? |
| 25. By: sexymarinersfan on 11-28-2012 19:54:12 @Alex Carson I agree with what you say about the M's wanting Franklin to take over for Ryan when he is ready, and I don't see Ryan being a back up at any point in his Mainers career either. One thing I am curious about is whether or not Franklin will even become a SS in this league, let alone organization. I think it is imperative that your top prospects are groomed for the position roles that they will be filling in a major league uniform. So until we start to see Nick do that on a more consistent daily basis, only then will I truly believe the M's have faith that he can stick there. Otherwise he's just a trading chip or competition for Ackley down the road. |
| 26. By: dewey on 11-28-2012 20:57:55 Church all this talk about Franklin being our next SS do you think he can play avg defense? I think he will hot but is he durable and strong enough to last at SS? |
| 27. By: randyman84 on 11-28-2012 23:41:56 BJ Upton should be an option at that price. Id like M's to trade for someone like RF/1B/3B Chris Davis. look at his numbers compared to someone like Saunders who had a good year for us. -Chris Davis 2012 stats.-139GAMES-.270AVE-326OBP-20DOUBLES-33HR-85RBI- 33BB-139SO - Micheal S. 2012 stats.-139 GAMES-.247AVE.-306OBP-31DOUBLES-19HR-57RBI-43BB-132SO He has better numbers than BJ Upton. Chris Davis is only 26 years old and under contract for 4 more years at league min. in 2013. Why didnt we get this guy instead of Smoak? Baltimore needs 2B,1B.They have plenty of power with Hardy,Weiter,Markakis,Jones,and Reynolds. Maybe we sell them Smoak/Miller for 6'3" 230lb Chris Davis. Id like to see the mariners go for OF/1B Davis,1B/DH Hafner,LHP Liriano, LHP Bedard |
| 28. By: randyman84 on 11-28-2012 23:47:20 Lineup of 2B ACKLEY 3B SEAGER RF DAVIS C MONTERO DH HAFNER CF GUTIERREZ LF SAUNDERS 1B CARP SS RYAN ROTATION FELIX BEDARD IWAK LIRIANO RAMIREZ |
| 29. By: d2ret on 11-29-2012 08:46:10 Ackley, Paxton, Vargas, Fernandez for Myers, Cuthbert, lower level arm. Sign two of Capuano/Liriano/Marcum/McCarthy/Jackson Sign Sizemore and Hafner to deals with incentives for ABs I just dont see the big FA's coming here. I know Zs got trade options this offseason. |
| 30. By: Ungnome on 11-29-2012 10:22:12 Hafner, Sizemore, Liriano, Bedard, Marcum, McCarthy. What is the common theme between all of these players? Extensive injury history. How much do injured players contribute to a team winning. ZERO. Relying on players who have spent more time on the DL than on the active roster are unlikely to help the Mariners win more than last year. The idea behind picking up a pitcher is so the M's don't have to rely on Blake Beavan. Getting a guy who can't stay healthy means the team will have to rely on Beavan and possibly more arms deeper in the system. The M's have cash, spend it on someone who can actually earn it. |
| 31. By: d2ret on 11-29-2012 10:46:57 Who do you recommend that we sign? |
| 32. By: pwhit44 on 11-29-2012 10:49:59 Ungnome, I think the idea is that people want most of the available cash to be spent on bats, and that the injury history of these players might reduce their cost. All the pitchers you mention are better than Beavan, and any amount of time they spend on the mound, even if limited, is better than the time Beavan would spend there. If they happen to come cheap, and happen to be healthy, that's a huge boon to the rotation. Same goes for a guy like Sizemore. You don't rely on him to be an every day player. If he's healthy and hitting, he becomes one and he's a cheap above-average player. Very little risk. Pretty sure that's the point. |
| 33. By: d2ret on 11-29-2012 10:53:38 I just think if the health checks out, the M's have to be in the business of picking up some reclamation projects. They absolutely should make at least one decent sized trade. Beane does it every year. Find the bargain values in the FA class. Hamilton and Swisher arent coming here except for a massive overpay. Look at the president set by the Upton deal. You have to be realistic. Who do you want? Pagan? Sanchez? Napoli? |
| 34. By: d2ret on 11-29-2012 11:12:52 Yes thank you pwhit44. You got my point. I actually think the offense is going to take a HUGE step up next year irreguardless of any moves, but just because of the fences coming in, and not playing Olivo, Figgins, and the underperforming Ichiro. If we get significant upgrades, our offense will be middle of the pack or better I believe. |
| 35. By: d2ret on 11-29-2012 11:15:34 Not Hyperbole, I really feel strongly about that. Yes, Hafner, Sizemore, and those pitchers. The trade route is where you are going to get much better on paper. |
| 36. By: rjfrik on 11-29-2012 11:15:41 I think we are all going to have to come to the realization that the M's aren't going to sign anyone this year. There just isn't the right piece this year in the FA market to congeal with what we already have. Next year is a banner year for the bats in the FA market. I think their strategy will to try and make a trade and then let the young kids develop another year. Hope to be competitive, a .500 ball club and try to sign two big ticket FA next year like the year when we signed Beltre and Sexon. I just don't see the right fit in the FA market and I could see JZ feeling the same way. It wasn't that great of a market to begin with. Time to move on and hope our players develop. |
| 37. By: Edman on 11-29-2012 11:43:27 Holy F'in crap. It's way early in the off-season, and people are rosterbating to the point they've gone blind, and rjfrik is ready to give up for this year. It's WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY EARLYYYYYYYYYYYY in the process. And, just because you don't hear Seattle linked to any rumors doesn't mean that Jack isn't talking to players and teams. Seattle is traditionally very quiet about the moves it makes. As Jack has proven in the past, you'll likely not hear about anything he's working on, until it's done. Relax and don't let appearances fool you. |
| 38. By: John_S on 11-29-2012 12:49:12 rjfrik - I agree with you, the free agents out there really are not ones that would fit. Napoli doesn't really get me excited especially offering a 4 year deal? Imagine what would happen if he pulled a Sexson and was crap during years 3 and 4. They could sign some reclamation projects but is that really going to get you excited? I would just like for them to sign some low cost alternatives to 1 or 2 year contracts and hope they blossom and wait for next years free agent crop. |
| 39. By: Lailoken on 11-29-2012 13:03:10 FWIW mlbtraderumors projected Andino's salary at 1.8 million & Ryan's salary at 2.3 million. So the total would much closer to 4 million than the 6 million dollar figure that's been bandied about here. |
| 40. By: Tackeret on 11-29-2012 13:22:31 @37 - Edman, that was awesome...I agree with the whole 'Rosterbatting' comment, though I hadn't seen it put so eloquently before. There are FA out there that I would like (or would have liked in Upton's case), but from the beginning of this off season, there has been more talk that the M's would need to make their major additions via trade not FA. The winter meetings aren't even here yet, nor are the non-tenders...Patients Everyone, it isn't even December yet! |
| 41. By: rjfrik on 11-29-2012 13:25:28 Ed don't put words into my mouth. Something you are good at. Im not giving up on anything. Where did I say that? In my opinion the way to give up would be to go out and waste all your damn money on a crappy FA in a crappy FA market. In my opinion the Mariners shouldn't sign anyone in this crappy market. Save all their cash for next year. Let the young kids develop more and improve your record a few games and get to .500 ball. Im not sure how that is giving up. I even mention I could see a trade which would benefit the club. Get off your high horse man. |
| 42. By: Edman on 11-29-2012 13:46:00 rjfrik, what words did I put into your mouth? This is what you said..... "I think we are all going to have to come to the realization that the M's aren't going to sign anyone this year." Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's certainly what you said. There will be players signed this year. Will they be superstar players? I dunno. A lot depends on which players want to come to Seattle, and for how much. With Jack, I wouldn't rule anything out. He's a good pitchman. I think there is a lot to sell about coming to Seattle. Fences coming in, good pitching core, and good, young prospects. I don't know how you spin your statement into anything more than giving up on this year. |
| 43. By: Ungnome on 11-29-2012 13:49:25 If I had my way I would do what I suggested back in May or June and get a deal done for Wil Myers. It looks like it would need to be a 3-way deal because KC wants ML ready pitching but dangling Tai Walker can get a lot done. Shawn Kelley is likely involved in this deal and another midlevel AA prospect like Miller/Hicks/Fernandez. Walker is a highly rated prospect as is Myers. Their value can't be too different. I would sign Edwin Jackson to a 4/48 deal. Durable 200 inning horse buys time for Paxton/Hultzen to take over for Vargas and then Iwakuma over the next two years. I like Morneau at 1B for a year pushing Smoak to AAA. Adding a veteran bat who has won an MVP for $14mm is not a huge risk considering it is only one year. Maurer/Romero/Carp may get that deal done. This is dependant on Minnesota actually wanting to deal which seemed like a gaurantee earlier this off-season, maybe they are waiting for the losers of FA to come sniffing around their goods. Morneau has missed a lot of games over the last three years but that was mostly because of a concussion which can be dismissed as flukey. The wrist injury that ended his 2012 season prematurely is a red flag but if Smoak can make strides he can replace an injured or underperforming Morneau. Rotation: Felix, Jackson, Vargas, Iwakuma, Ramirez Bullpen: Wilhelmsen, Pryor, Capps, Kinney, Perez, Furbush, Luetge Lineup: Ackley 2B, Guti CF, Seager 3B, Montero DH, Morneau 1B, Saunders LF, Myers RF, Jaso C, Ryan SS Bench: Wells OF, Andino IF, (?)Liddi IF/OF, Catcher. The difference between relying on Morneau, with Smoak as his primary backup, and Bedard, McCarthy, Liriano with Beavan as their backup is that Smoak's upside is that of a quality, everyday first baseman who could hit fourth in a ML lineup. Beavan's career will peak as a fifth starter at best. (Note: I am not saying Smoak will be amazing in 2013 but that his potential ceiling is still extremely high whether he reaches it or not. I mean, the dude was terrible and still ended with 19 dingers.) !!THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART!! The players we think the Mariners should acquire is irrelevant to the general ideas that we are talking about. Players are interchangable and we should not get hung up on a particular name but rather what that player can contribute on the field. Bargain hunting is great and all except when the bargain inevitably doesn't pan out and your prospects act like prospects and don't make the impact you were hoping for. Teams with solid, proven, veteran cores (Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies, White Sox, Tigers, Braves, Cardinals, ect.) are the teams that can take risks because their baseline is higher. The M's don't have that luxury and need something reliable, otherwise they will find themselves in their usual spot at the bottom of the division with their "big signings" sitting on the DL. In conclusion, if you are going to buy a guy who is broken then you have to have a decent backup because you are likely going to be relying on the backup more than you would like. |
| 44. By: Edman on 11-29-2012 14:10:04 Prospects act like prospects and don't make the impact you were hoping for.......and you want to go acquire Myers? Jack doesn't have the luxury of waiting for Myers to go through the same transition as Ackley. Bottom line is Jack needs immediate help, not more prospects. He's got plenty of his own. It now, or die for Jack. |
| 45. By: John_S on 11-29-2012 14:31:48 rjfrik - We all know what you meant, no need to clarify. |
| 46. By: Ungnome on 11-29-2012 14:35:05 You're against acquiring Myers, Edman? Prospects contribute varying amounts. Maybe Myers is closer to Trout than to Ackley. I don't have the answer but that is not a reason to not get him. I would still rather have a prospect who gives 1 WAR over a player like Sizemore who can't even get on the field. No one has said Jack is on the Hot Seat and he will continue to build a strong core. Adding Myers to Ackley, Smoak, Seager, Saunders, Felix, Erasmo, ect. makes the Mariners core one of the youngest and brightest in the league. If Jack is on the Hot Seat then he will never see these players develop and I think that would be the wrong move to make. Where is the outfield prospect that Jack has? Is that why there is talk about getting a FA outfielder? Where is this prospect that can play RF in 2013? Tai Walker can't help in 2013 and likely won't help until 2015. Trading that prospect for something in a more immediate position of need is a good idea no matter how you cut it. |
| 47. By: Ungnome on 11-29-2012 15:04:38 The real value in my proposed plan comes in 2014 when Morneau (14), Vargas (8?), Ryan (3?) are all free agents and Figgins (9) drops from the payroll. Jaso (2?) and Kinney (1?) can be traded or non-tendered and Guti (7.5) could have his option declined. That's $44.5 million available and every hole except the OF spot can be filled internally. Franklin for Ryan, Zunino for Jaso, Hultzen/Paxton for Vargas, Smoak for Morneau. Guti is still an exceptional value when healthy and would be kept in a scenario where he stayed healthy. $30+ million is a lot of wiggle room to upgrade the roster and trade the excess players for proven talent. As long as the M's do not saddle themselves this year with long-term contracts to players who are not great fits or will only decline (Swisher, Napoli, Hamilton), the future is very bright. |
| 48. By: Edman on 11-29-2012 15:46:40 I have no problem with Myers, just not in favor of adding another rookie to the roster, when there is a need for major league ready players. People on the net fall in love with certain players, simply because their name gets mentioned. Jack does not have all the time he wants to build a franchise, despite what you might light to believe. He has enough minor league talent now, that he can start depending on players within the current system, to fill holes in the near future. He doesn't need to go acquire Myers. The Mariners need some established hitters now. Do they have to be superstars? No. But, there is no more time to let the cream rise to the top. They have a better idea of what they need to change. Tell me, after the M's raised ticket prices and added a new HD video screen to Safeco Field, how well do you think fan perception would be, if the Mariners came back with yet another "Wait until next year" campaign? This isn't fantasy league stuff. This is winning, and yes, even spending money, if it's risky. You don't want to take risks, then go manage a fantasy league team, where attendance, revenues and fan perception isn't a factor. |
| 49. By: cptobvious on 11-29-2012 16:39:48 @ rjfrik what's so great about next year's free agents? I don't see a single guy that is more interesting than what is available this year. This is what free agency is now with hitters at such a premium. Its going to be early 30s hitters that either have great upside but huge concerns (hamilton/fielder/wright if he were to make it next year), or above average hitters that have generally been solid, its just hard to wrap your head around paying them $15mil+/per (swisher/upton/choo). The latter is the result of keeping your head in 2002 thinking, and not understanding the 2012 marketplace. There's not going to be absolutely perfect, meets every need brilliantly free agent hitters. Even if there were one to hit the market, you're probably not going to afford him or want to afford him.... like say the last one to hit free agency, 2000 A-Rod. You can trot out the wait until next year propaganda the front office has pushed on us virtuously endlessly, but there's no great prize at the end of this rainbow. its going to be basically the same hitters available every year. Grab one this year or don't, just don't act like your options are so much better next year, because they just won't be. |
| 50. By: VikingArthur on 11-29-2012 17:23:52 @43 You propose we trade Maurer/Romero/Carp for Morneau? I would not give up Romero or Maurer by themselves for Morneau. He is a decent 1b with massive injury risk and is only signed for a year. Either you have him for a year or you sign him to an overpriced extension that will be an albatross. No thanks! I think the M's should either pony up 4/100 million for Hamilton (I think that gets it done to be honest) or sign Pagan and let the core develop. Add Hamilton or Pagan and see if Walker + is good enough for Myers and roll with that. |
| 51. By: Edman on 11-29-2012 17:40:15 If the Royals trade Myers, they want a MLB ready starter like James Shields. They need help at the Major League level, not more prospects. Other than Felix, Seattle doesn't have anything that the Royals are interested in. They're trying to win now with their core of young hitters. These fantasy trades where Seattle sends them one of the big three pitching prospects won't work. They aren't interesting in a continual rebuild. To get any hitter off the Royals roster is most likely to have to be a three-way (if not more) trade, which are very difficult to pull off, because you have to please three teams. |
| 52. By: VikingArthur on 11-29-2012 18:17:02 Yeah... that is what I gather as well Edman. I just don't want this team spending a ton of money on guys on the downslope of their careers. |
| 53. By: Edman on 11-29-2012 18:28:50 VikingArthur, I don't think there's any time-tested formula that assures success when it comes to Free Agents. Figgins and Silva were in their prime. The debate about both will be held by some for many years going forward. But, a guy like Jim Thome, doesn't fit that mold, and has been very productive at an advanced age. It's about making sound choices, if that's even possible. I'd be good with a Hamilton 4 year/$100 million contract. But, some desparate team will end up overpaying him. I'm not thrilled about a Napoli 4 year contact either, but at least it's not a 7 or 10 year burden. If he does have a couple of bad years, at least it ends fairly soon. Seattle is probably the only team that wants him to catch a fair number of games, and I think that's more important to him than the money. Having Napoli allows Zunino to ease into the role. And, Napoli can be used at first and DH. The biggest problem is selling Seattle to Free Agents. Which means, there won't likely be any rush for them to come to Seattle. They're going to wait for a big market team to say no first. I wouldn't want Jack's job for all the tea in China. He's under pressure to get this right. They won't wait another three years. |
| 54. By: VikingArthur on 11-29-2012 19:09:10 What I want to know is how we let the Nationals give Minnesota a low level minor leaguer for Span. We could use him in CF and it would seem that we could have given Minnesota a better prospect than that. |
| 55. By: Mackie on 11-29-2012 20:16:18 I agree that if the Royals want ML-ready starting pitching we probably don't have what they would want, and from all indications it is quite possible they wouldn't trade Myers unless they could get someone like a James Shields in return. After Felix, I don't think our rotation is bad. But after him I think the talent level drops off pretty significantly, and while our prospects are probably pretty good, they are just that, prospects... KC may be tired of rebuilding at this point. And if they want an ace pitcher in return for Myers, I don't think someone like Jason Vargas is bad, but I also don't think he fits the bill. I appreciate what the Mariners are doing, building the core of young talent. And while it is looking like a good rebuild for the franchise, I also find myself hoping they will consider bringing in some proven players. While I do like Myers lots and wouldn't mind seeing him playing for Seattle, I think Edman comes close to nailing it in comment #48. In the first paragraph of that comment though, I would replace "major league ready" with "major league". I'd like to see the M's augment the youth movement with some established major league ballplayers, because I don't believe Seattle's farm system, in and of itself, is good enough to produce a major-league team that will be near the top of the division year in and year out. And to get back on track here, when it comes to Andino, I agree with what Rudolf says way back in #16 and Edman in #18. I see the acquisition of Andino as a positive because it builds some depth for the team. |
| 56. By: sexymarinersfan on 11-29-2012 20:52:26 This is beginning to remind me of the '95 year--except we don't have a Superstar, but we have an Ace like Randy and an ACTUAL closer-- when a bunch of sluggers just started to POP!! Buhner, Edgar, Tino, Blowers, and Wilson just all of a sudden caught lightning in a bottle. It was contagious! Seager had a terrific first year and I would hope that he could build on that. This young core is beginning to come to the corner I think, not come around, but come to the beginning of it. |
| 57. By: rjfrik on 11-29-2012 22:00:37 Well cptobvious. Here are a few. Drastically better then this years crop dont ya think? Seems pretty obvious to me. 2014 FAs Votto, Cano, Wright, Zimmerman, Morneau, Kinsler, A. Gordon, A. Jones, or Ellsbury just to name a few |
| 58. By: Rudolf on 11-29-2012 22:19:38 rj, I could be wrong, but I think Votto, Zimmerman, Kinsler and Jones signed long-term contracts this past season. Gordon's contract runs through 2016 with options. Cano will probably sign an extension with the Yankees, as will Wright with the Mets. So I think your long list of superstars is *actually/probably* limited to Jacoby Ellsbury, an injury-prone player, and Morneau, a complete unknown. |
| 59. By: Edman on 11-29-2012 23:34:02 Including what Rudolf said, is the fact that ALL could resign with their original clubs, so your attempt to represent a better class for the next off-season, is not at all accurate. We KNOW who the Free Agents are right now. We can only assume who they will be next year. |
| 60. By: Wishhiker on 11-30-2012 07:21:04 Wright just signed an extension through 2020. It's like that every year at this time and every year most of the good ones are extended before hitting free agency. It's time to think about this year anyway. |
| 61. By: dewey on 11-30-2012 07:55:03 Well folks if we ever thought we could get players without over paying it aint happening the pirates just gave Russel Martin who hit 210 17 million for 2 years. Where do i sign up man these contracts and not ok this year just nuts i think but desperate teams and desperate gms who our trying to hold on to there jobs make these kind of moves ala Bedard trade . |
| 62. By: Mackie on 11-30-2012 08:15:45 What I think you just said, Dewey! 8-) Yes, you're right... let's hope that the M's aren't so desperate as to throw that kind of money at players like Martin (who could quite possibly be of some help, but at that price?) Thanks commentors #58, #59, and #60 for the reminders about future FAs and current contract extensions. My hopes were up a bit about next year's group too... Now I'll remember to go look at Cot's Baseball Contracts site. |
| 63. By: Paul Martin on 11-30-2012 08:29:48 David Wright re-signs with the Mets. Take him off the trade for or sign next year list. We need outfielders not 3rd basemen anyway... Russell Martin gets two years 17 million from the Pirates. Glad those rumors to Seattle were false and even more happy to see the Yankees without their starting catcher!!! They have a big hole to fill with slim pickings out there. Maybe they are stuck with Miguel Olivo now?!! |
| 64. By: VikingArthur on 11-30-2012 10:48:11 I am starting to wonder if Jack Z is asleep at the wheel! The Angels get Tommy Hanson for Jordan Walden? Walden is a complete bum... If he can fetch a guy like Hanson what could Wilhemsen bring back? |
| 65. By: Edman on 11-30-2012 11:22:23 I wouldn't say that Walden was a complete bum....that's a little harsh. Did we need Hansen? He didn't have an All-Star year, but he didn't stink it up either. He averaged a little over 1l strikeouts per 9 innings. I'm not interested in what Wilhelmsen could bring back, this isn't about trading stock. If Wilhelmsen is traded, it better be for someone who would make a difference right away. People need to stop looking at what other teams do, and assuming that Jack is doing nothing. He's not interested in doing deals for the sake of doing them, he's looking at making the team better. |
| 66. By: VikingArthur on 11-30-2012 11:25:43 Are you saying that acquiring Hanson for Wilhemsen would not help this team? That is a crazy notion. We keep talking about the need for a solid starter to bridge the gap until our kids are ready. Hanson not only does that but could be a legit #2 starter for us. Walden is just a guy who throws hard, we have 3-4 "Waldens" in our system now. |
| 67. By: maqman on 11-30-2012 11:30:51 I don't think the Twins got good value for Span, we could have bettered that. The same goes for Hanson. So far Trader Jack is being out-traded. |
| 68. By: Edman on 11-30-2012 11:34:11 Absolutely it would not help the team. Have you kept up with Hansen lately? His fastball is losing velocity, hense a nearly one run addition to his ERA. Hopefully, you noticed that. Don't go by "name brands". He's got some shoulder issues that may not simply go away. Tommy Hansen, in he best years, was never a #2 starter, and likely never will be. Right now, he's a #4 starter, at best. He's better than Beavan, but that's not saying a ton. |
| 69. By: Rudolf on 11-30-2012 11:34:35 Span was sold too cheap but we already have that guy with Gutierrez. I think that Hanson has shoulder issues. Why else would the Braves give him up for a bullpen arm? EJax @ 4/40 is a better investment and we'd keep Wilhelmsen/Capps/whoever. |
| 70. By: VikingArthur on 11-30-2012 11:37:42 Hanson has had some health struggles...but young pitchers tend to go through that. The Braves rushed him a bit. Edwin Jackson at 10 million a year so that you can keep Wilhemsen or Capps? Guys like Wilhemsen and Capps grow on trees... I suppose I could see the concern with Hanson but getting a guy who is even a #4 starter and cost controlled for a bullpen arm is a no brainer. |
| 71. By: Edman on 11-30-2012 11:38:31 magman, from what I've read, the concensious is about 50/50 on the Span trade. It depends on who you want to believe. Which tells me that it's about as fair as it gets. It's way early to make assumptions, because Jack hasn't done anything yet. That describes a majority of GMs, at this point. |
| 72. By: Edman on 11-30-2012 11:41:15 VikingArthur, Seattle's biggest strength is young pitching. Pitching we have, hitting we need. |
| 73. By: Edman on 11-30-2012 11:44:25 Let's also add that the M's scouts have a far better idea about Hansen, than any of us do. They might see him as damaged goods, and not willing to give up someone like Wilhelmsen to get him. If you could get him for someone like Carter Capps, maybe you consider it. But I'm more inclined to trust that the M's scouted Hansen and decided that he was too much a risk. And, that assumes that the Braves even let the Mariners know he was available. |
| 74. By: VikingArthur on 11-30-2012 11:55:42 All true... Hanson is a question mark. I just think you guys are overvaluing these bullpen arms. To be honest, I am more frustrated by the Melky Cabrera and Denard Span deals. Span was acquired for a A ball pitcher! Melky signed for the same price as Russell Martin! The M's could have gotten both of them without sacrficing salary flexibility or a ton of young talent. How would this lineup look? 1. Span 2. Jaso 3. Cabrera 4. Montero 5. Seager 6. Ackley 7. Saunders 8. Smoak 9. Ryan/Andino I'd say that looks like a legit MLB lineup. I little light in the middle but barring a monster move that is what we will have anyway. |
| 75. By: Edman on 11-30-2012 12:34:37 I think it's too simplistic to define the Span trade by saying only that he was traded for an A-ball pitcher. Alex Meyer was the National's first round pick in 2011, not a 12th roung pick. Will it give the Twins immediate help? No, but he apparently is a very good, young pitcher who has a good chance of helping the Twins in the future. Let's put it another way, would you be for trading Walker, in his second year at A-ball for Span? I sure wouldn't. So calling Meyer an A-ball doesn't tell the whole story. As far as Cabrera goes, I know I'm in the minority, but I don't want a player who knowingly violated the substance abuse policy. It wasn't like it was an accident. He admitted that he knew what he was taking. What does that say about his character? And people have to stop assuming that a player that is signed by other teams, would have wanted to come to Seattle. That's not realistic. |
| 76. By: Jerry on 11-30-2012 14:41:38 Who cares if the M's could have matched the deal for Span? Span isn't what the team needs. At all. Span is a solid player, but he's very similar to Guti and Saunders. Guti plays better defense and has a bit more power, but doesn't get on base as much as has health issues. Saunders doesn't play defense quite as well, but he has more power and a lot more upside. Between those two, the M's are good in CF. They need a bat. Span is a great addition for the Nats, because it allows them to move Bryce Harper to RF. Now, they have an OF of Jason Werth, Span, and Harper. The M's aren't in the same position at all. Besides, Span would have cost the M's James Paxton at least. Is that worth it? I'd rather keep Paxton, or use him as a trade chip to get a better hitter who can play a corner OF position. |
| 77. By: mazono on 11-30-2012 15:05:17 Two guys that interest me that just became FA: Jair Jurrjens and Ryan Sweeney. Don't know why but they caught my eye after the announcement of both players being non-tendered by their former clubs. |
| 78. By: VikingArthur on 11-30-2012 15:10:43 Yeah...I wouldn't be willing to part with Paxton either. As for Melky and steroids...I want guys who are willing to push the envelope and be great. Our best years were filled with guys on the juice. What his steroid use tells me about his character? That he is a competitor and winner. I want those guys. I just have a different view on steroid and PED use.. I think it should be allowed, acceptable and encouraged. That way people won't be in this naive world where athletes don't use everything they can get their hands on to be great. Don't want to sidetrack the convo... Span was not a need, I guess I overreacted to him getting traded for an A ball pitcher with a decent, not great, resume. |
| 79. By: VikingArthur on 11-30-2012 15:14:34 I do think we should stop counting on Franklin G... he had one great year. He has shown a basic inability to hit OR stay healthy since or before. Saying that Span would not be a significant upgrade over Gutierrez is a classic case of homerism. |
| 80. By: Edman on 11-30-2012 16:40:22 So, you're willing to support a cheater, as long as you win because of it? What it tells me about his character is that he doesn't give a damn about rules or playing with a level playing field. What you or I think, doesn't matter. There are rules. If he doesn't like them, he can go be an accountant, or a dock worker, etc. Doesn't matter how naive people are, or what they think. He knowingly cheated. That's the price you pay. I accept that he served out his time, but he could have cost the Giants the World Series. I have no problem with a guy working his ass off in the gym, with extra workouts, and personal motivation. But, he didn't want to do it that way. So, would you be for your kid getting the answers for a final test, so he could pass his/her SAT's, rather than to study? Would you call the kids who didn't cheat and actually studied non-competative? I mean, it's about getting to college isn't it, not wheither you earned it? I will never respect any ballplayer who knowingly uses substances that aren't approved, wheither I believe they should be or not. Play by the same rules everyone else is suppose to, and don't wait until you get caught to say you're sorry. |
| 81. By: rjfrik on 11-30-2012 17:23:45 Melky didn't take Steroids. He took testosterone boosters. I take the same shit from GNC. It acts like caffeine. It gets me pumped up to go work out or go see a trainer. Men start losing their testosterone when they hit 30. Every year after 30 your testosterone goes down little by little. It impacts your energy, libido and overall mood. Frankly I see nothing wrong with taking testosterone. It's not like he was taking Steroids to become HE MAN and hit 75 HRs. This isn't Bonds, McGwire, ARod or Sosa here. Completely different story. And Melky would have come here if we offered him more money and another year. Give the guy 3 years at ten million per and he would be beating down the M's door. Frankly I would have no problem giving him that kind of money. |
| 82. By: Rudolf on 11-30-2012 17:30:59 What about Jeff Karstens for the number five spot, especially if we move Vargas? He pulled some wool in Pittsburgh for a few years. He's only 30 and I bet he comes cheap. He might be able to put up some Jason Vargas-type numbers. |
| 83. By: everblue77 on 11-30-2012 18:41:32 Teams with serious intentions of competing make serious offers to quality free agents. This Seattle team has no intention of doing that and is constantly shopping at the bargin bin. They have proven that year after year. Believe what you want....justify, rationalize, convince yorself otherwise. This team is not concerned about building a winner, it's all about $$..and they are making it with minimum investment. Think about your 401k. Would you put more at risk if you were guaranteed a reasonable return? I'll be VERY surprised if they make any trade that brings serious talent to Seattle. |
| 84. By: everblue77 on 11-30-2012 18:41:56 Teams with serious intentions of competing make serious offers to quality free agents. This Seattle team has no intention of doing that and is constantly shopping at the bargin bin. They have proven that year after year. Believe what you want....justify, rationalize, convince yorself otherwise. This team is not concerned about building a winner, it's all about $$..and they are making it with minimum investment. Think about your 401k. Would you put more at risk if you were guaranteed a reasonable return? I'll be VERY surprised if they make any trade that brings serious talent to Seattle. |
| 85. By: Wishhiker on 11-30-2012 19:35:56 It amazes me how many people seem to know the intentions of what is possibly the most tight lipped front office in the game. Name your source or take a cue from the Ms and keep it to yourself. Seriously. There's reason to believe that this year is a different position for the team than the last few years. They are a lot closer to having a competitive team and complete roster than the last few years. I'm pretty happy with the roster by adding a decent starter, backup RH catcher and 2 outfielders with league average + bats. Hopefully at least one OF is a .450+ slg type and if 2 are coming in one should be RH/SW. The roster actually warrants paying a bit to get a decent bat or two. A few things going well could put them in the playoffs with the right acquisitions. I'd prefer they not have to trade any of Paxton, Walker, Hultzen, or Franklin to get it done though. That is spending future $$ just like aFA signing is by having to replace those with future FA. If they aren't happy with the idea of Franklin at SS then maybe it's not as big a deal. I just don't think that's the case. |
| 86. By: pwhit44 on 11-30-2012 19:52:24 rjfrik #57: "2014 FAs Votto, Cano, Wright, Zimmerman, Morneau, Kinsler, A. Gordon, A. Jones, or Ellsbury just to name a few..." Dude, - Votto is signed through 2023 w/ 2024 option - Wright just signed a huge deal - Zimmerman is signed through 2019 w/ 2020 option - Gordon is signed through 2015 w/ 2016 option - Jones is signed through 2018 So... yeah. That's more than half of your mystical 2014 free agent list. Elite hitters rarely become free agents anymore. At least until they are well past their primes or at least into their 30's. Teams are locking them up long ahead of time. cptobvious is 100 percent right when he says most of the free agent hitters who reach free agency have red flags. Morneau is a good example from your list. He'll likely become a free agent, as you say. But I doubt Cano makes it to the open market. Ellsbury might, but the Red Sox could easily sign him ahead of time too. |
| 87. By: pwhit44 on 11-30-2012 19:57:01 Left off Kinsler. He's signed through 2017 w/ 2018 option. |
| 88. By: VikingArthur on 11-30-2012 20:56:57 @ 81 There is NO test that detects the difference between an anabolic steroid and a precursor whose metabolites are anabolic steroids. The test measures a range of testosterone and determines if it is outside of the endogenous norm. The test does not specify which kind of anabolic he took...none of that. He may claim to have used something from "GNC" (almost certainly untrue... GNC pulled most prohormones that could cause a positive drug test 5-10 years ago). That is the cover story. HCG (the substance he and Manny Ramirez) used is NOT available in a supplement and IS NOT a "testosterone booster". HCG is used by users of anabolic steroids at the end of their steroid cycles to restart their natural systems after months of dormancy. When you take steroids your natural testosterone turns off (hence testicular shrinkage)... and when you come off the system is slow to rebound or worse, nonresponsive. HCG is used to get the system back to normal so that the user is not a zero testosterone environment for the 4-6 week post cycle that endogenous testosterone is suppressed. Melky used (probably one of many undetectable anabolics) and then used HCG to get his system back going again. No one but steroid users has any use for HCG (aspiring female mothers aside). All that said... I would have given him 3/30 million with an out clause/pay back clause for another positive test and then told him "Don't get caught again" wink wink nod nod. |
| 89. By: VikingArthur on 11-30-2012 21:35:09 I want to correct the record... Melky was caught for testosterone. His ratios were "unnatural" and that led to a positive test. There are a million different ways to illicitly boost testosterone...but you could not do it unless you went out of your way to find something illicit to do with it. OTC "boosters" are either bogus OR they are prohormones that metabolize into anabolic substances. You could not do it "on accident" or "eat something in a protein bar". The excuses are truly hilarious! |
| 90. By: rjfrik on 11-30-2012 22:44:44 I'm not saying he did in unintentionally. I'm saying he took testosterone boosters knowingly. I take it and I know that I'm taking it and it raises my testosterone levels. All I'm saying is this: What I take isn't steroids. It's a testosterone booster. If I were an MLB player I would test positive for a performance enhancing drug under MLB rules. But what I take doesn't make me stronger, run faster or have better hand eye coordination. |
| 91. By: rjfrik on 11-30-2012 22:47:51 Sorry for not getting the 2014 class right. I googled it and pulled my list off of MLBtraderumors and then cross referenced it with the next highest page on google bleacher report. I usually get my information by googling it. Google failed this time around. http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/02/top-2014-mlb-free-agents.html http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1032868-mlb-free-agency-looking-ahead-at-the-next-3-free-agent-classes |
| 92. By: rjfrik on 11-30-2012 22:52:46 I still wouldn't touch any Free Agent in this class with a ten foot pole. Swisher, Napoli and Hamilton are all garbage for the amount of money you will have to pay them and of course the number of year that they won't be productive in an M's uni because they are all past their prime. Zips did a projection on what Hamilton's average WAR would be on a five year deal if he signed with the M's. 15 WAR accumulated over five years, so a 3 WAR player for us going forward. Doesn't sound like someone you should pay 25 million a year for. You could have signed Melky for twice as cheap and received 15 WAR over five years easy. |
| 93. By: dewey on 12-01-2012 02:09:42 #92 I tend to agree with you most will be overpays and arent worth it but do you thin JMZ is let his job get away without taking a shot at one of these overpriced Free agents? If so i believe we our mistaken we all if we had the GM job would go down swinging but this is where his bosses have to keep there eyes open. As i said in a earlier post desperate gms do deasperate things and thats scary ala Pittsburg with Martin. If he stands Pat he gets killed by media so i truly believe this is the year Jack earns his money. |
| 94. By: VikingArthur on 12-01-2012 08:58:43 @90 If a product does actually raise your free testosterone levels enough to trigger a positive test...it would most certainly make you stronger and run faster. Doesn't help with eye hand coordination at all. |
| 95. By: maqman on 12-01-2012 11:17:28 Span had the same fWAR (3.9) as Swisher this past season and is a lead-off batter. He's signed for two more seasons and is 3 or 4 years younger than Swisher. IMO he was worth Paxton. Hanson was worse than I realized, the Braves must have worn him out. |
| 96. By: VikingArthur on 12-01-2012 11:46:52 Yeah... I think we could have used Span for sure. He is pretty cheap and is a good player. I would have to think about trading Paxton for him...but given that Gutierrez is such a brittle guy, I think I'd pull the trigger. Hanson's ERA and WHIP were not good...but he still struck guys out which tells me he isn't that far away from where he was a couple of years ago and he is still a young pitcher. Span is the right kind of guy. Not real expensive, does everything pretty well and is not a huge hole in the lineup. Guti has been a black hole in the lineup for most of his career (his one good year notwithstanding). My dream outfield would have been Saunders, Span and Melky and we could have gotten it done relatively cheaply. |
| 97. By: rotoenquire on 12-01-2012 12:23:46 What about going after Jair Jurrjens? He is only 26 and one year removed from a really good season. |
| 98. By: Marlin Man on 12-01-2012 17:52:01 maybe jack could get something good from yanks for Montero- they seemed to think he was a catcher, hell, it's him or Olivo. M.M. |
| 99. By: Alpha Blu on 12-01-2012 22:25:31 @Edman regarding comment #75: Alex Meyer is a solid young prospect with some upside, but he's got a limited repertoire and command issues, and there is an equal chance he could be nothing more than a late-inning power arm. @VikingArthur: the Mariners could've beaten that deal, and they probably should have. Gutierrez and Maurer for Span and perhaps a B-level prospect would've been a nice trade for both teams. It honestly makes me wonder how much the FO values on-base skills. I also have to wonder what sort of value the Yankees would be looking for should they attempt to trade Curtis Granderson. I've always dreamed of him being a Mariner... |
| 100. By: Alpha Blu on 12-01-2012 22:28:06 For clarification regarding my last comment: I am assuming that other teams value Maurer much like the Mariners do. |
| 101. By: Rudolf on 12-02-2012 00:28:45 I can see why the M's might be slow to part with their top pitching prospects. Each of them have questions which reduces their trade value. Taijuan Walker has the tools but has yet to put it together. Danny Hultzen struggled at AAA. James Paxton hasn't mastered his control. Brandon Maurer finally had a healthy season and pitched well for only 16 starts. Erasmo Ramirez's increase in velocity is newfound and he only started a handful of games in the major leagues. If any of these guys really delivers on their promise in 2013 they will carry WAAAAAY more trade value. How much value does Dylan Bundy have? So much that he's virtually untradeable! Imagine if Taijuan Walker crushes AA next year. What if Hultzen cruises thru AAA and has a strong showing down the stretch with the M's? What if Paxton or Maurer put it together for an entire season? Or Erasmo throws like a #3 starter. Right now we have to clump a few of these guys together to convince a trade partner the risk is tolerable. If even one of them truely delivers on their promise in 2013 they will return more much more talent. While I understand we need to win games and put butts in the seats, it might be worth it to hold out and get better value next year, even if it means one or two of them flame out/get injured. |
| 102. By: stvincentm on 12-02-2012 08:44:37 How about a trade for Alfonso Soriano, if the Cubs pay more than half of his last two years of his contract. If Mariners could get him for lets say for 7-9 million a year for the next two year. Also I don't feel like the team would have to give up a lot for him. Maybe a Mike Carp and a young bullpen arm, maybe a little more but he has had some pretty good years in regards to WAR. We need to make trades like this and not trade specs like Nick Frankli. |
| 103. By: tkballer22 on 12-02-2012 10:31:55 Player A: 91 games, .216 batting average, -0.7 WAR Player B: 137 games, .244 batting average, 0.4 WAR Player C: 65 games, .240 batting average, 0.4 WAR Player D: 90 games, .273 batting average, 3.4 WAR Player E: 53 games, .258 batting average, 0.6 WAR Player D is Dustin Ackley's first year (2011) Player E is Kyle Seager's first year (2011) Player A is Dan Wilson in 1994, first "semi-full" year Player B is Jay Buhner in 1991, his first semi-full year Player C is Edgar Martinez in 1989, his first semi-full year Sometimes, being patient pays off. Not saying Seager and Ackley will become Mariner HOFers, but we need to be a little more patient |
| 104. By: maqman on 12-02-2012 10:57:09 The do not much plan Like most M’s fans I’m sitting impatiently and waiting for the front office silence to be ruptured by news of a sensational signing or trade deal. I mean we need to sign Hamilton or Swisher or trade for Justin Upton or Wil Meyers to have any hope of a decent season next year, that expectation is pretty much a given, right? The only way to salvation is to get BIG BATS. right? Well, maybe not. If the team doesn’t make another move this off-season what have we got, a whole lot of not much? For one thing we have the immutable fact of addition by subtraction. Figgins and Olivo have gone, we don’t have to watch them flail away at bat after at bat or worry that any pitch in the dirt will make it to the backstop or sail over their head. All of their negative contributions have gone with them, that alone is a significant positive. Additionally, while Andino probably won’t have the entertainment value of Kawasaki even his poor batting average is a real improvement. Hector Noesi started 18 games and actually won two of them, unfortunately he lost 12 and rang up a 5.82 ERA. He went to Tacoma and started 11 more games and won two of them but lost 6 more. The way the game works is we have to score more than the other team, Noesi just makes that so much harder. Whoever makes his number of starts next season will have to do better, the only way they could be worse is if the game was fixed. Getting rid of bad is good. There were multiple players who did badly compared to expectations and prior performance, like the sub-par batting of Ryan, Ackley, Smoak and Montero. Then too there were those who qualified to park in the disabled spaces due to injuries like Carp and Guti. There’s probably a decent chance Guti doesn’t get beaned at first base next year or of Carp face planting himself in the opening game. There’s a higher possibility of improvement by these guys than there is of them getting even worse, that would require major efforts on their part. Without a trade or any further free agent signings there still remains a real possibility that any one or more of our farm hands can force their way on to the big club out of spring training or during the early season. Zunino, Romero, Franklin, Paxton and Hultzen have a reasonable possibility of doing so, if not a probability that one of them will. If Zunino smacks the snot out of the ball we are going to be really glad we didn’t commit multiple millions to Mike Napoli for four years of increasing degradation. Paxton or Hultzen would have to forget which way home plate is to pitch worse than Noesi Jack Zduriencik keeps insisting the goal is always to make the team better. "We're trying to do something that makes sense for this club." Doing not much might turn out to be what makes sense. |
| 105. By: sexymarinersfan on 12-02-2012 13:49:01 Here! Here! This fan base is literally frothing at the mouth for new acquisitional blood, when the formula may be prefectly in good form as of right now. It just needs time to develop. But this team does and should need to acquire some bats. |
| 106. By: Alpha Blu on 12-02-2012 17:48:33 Not that I disagree with the fact that Noesi sucks, but analyzing his performance by looking at how many games he 'won' versus how many he started is perhaps the worst way you can evaluate a pitcher's performance. Far too much importance is placed on wins, losses, and ERA. |
| 107. By: KingFelix on 12-02-2012 18:10:21 Why don't we do another prospect for prospect trade and move Walker to KC for Myers. Then turn around and decline arb with Vargas and sign LF Ross, a one year right handed catcher and go big and land Greinke and hope our young bats develop with the fences coming in and with a strong staff of arms. 2B Ackley CF Gutz / Saunders 3B Seager DH Montero LF Ross C Jaso / FA Platoon RF Myers 1B Smoak SS Ryan R Felix R Greinke L Hultzen R The Bear R Ramirez This gives us a nice young offense with upside and then we can see if Smoak, Ackley and Montero can figure it out and we have the upside of Myers bat as well along with a great staff along with some nice prospects in AAA and we keep our number 12 pick in the draft. |
| 108. By: Edman on 12-02-2012 18:29:41 KingFelix, because the Royals don't want a prospect for Myers. That's why they've been talking about guys like James Shields and Jon Lester, not prospects. They want help now, not later. Same as the Mariners want help with the offense now, and not later. IMHO, Seattle will not waste Free Agent money on more pitching, when that's their strength. Anyone can throw names out there, as if they are all available for whatever Seattle offers, but that's not going to get it done. |
| 109. By: sexymarinersfan on 12-02-2012 18:59:42 There's no way that either LA club will let Seattle out bid them for the best SP on the FA market. Greinke will set the bar for what it's going to take to re-sign Felix! You have to save that money for the King. |
| 110. By: Jackson on 12-02-2012 21:45:40 I don't see the Mariners giving $100M+ to Greinke before Felix. |
| 111. By: rjfrik on 12-03-2012 02:06:24 @104 and @105 This is exactly what I said a few days ago in this thread. We, as fans, might have to face the fact that there will be no big FA signing. We might see a trade, but we might not. I said it would be in the best interest of the M's to hang on to their money for next year and yet the young pieces develop. But I was labeled by Edman as someone who was ready to give up on the year. Wanting what's best for the team, even if that means sitting on your hands, is all I care about. I do not care at all to sign Swisher, Napoli, Hamilton or any other over 30 year old semi star to a bloated contract, which would punt the 12 pick. And yes Hamilton is more then a semi star I know, but he's not coming here anyway. |
| 112. By: docsmith on 12-03-2012 08:13:18 111 posts into this thread, but I have to agree...I doubt we sign any big FAs. Outside chance, sure. I have to wonder about the trade route, we'll see. Moving the fences in and additional growth by a very young nucleus, I can see us at a .500 baseball team next year. I am also not sure how much adding 1 FA would really increase that. |
| 113. By: Mackie on 12-03-2012 09:04:19 Well, Napoli has signed with the Red Sox for 3 years and $39M, so we can take his name off the list of potential signees. Let's see what this week brings... there are plenty of interesting things that could happen, and as I've learned from how the M's have been operating recently, if something happens it will likely be a surprise and will probably seem to come out of left field. |
| 114. By: Edman on 12-03-2012 09:30:42 $39 million for Napoli? I'm not upset that Seattle didn't sign him. Other targets, now they move on. It's about what I expected Napoli would get per season, so the money isn't that bad. I have no problem going with Montero, Jaso, mystery signee. I expect Seattle to do more with trades, than with Free Agents. They have prospects to deal. |
| 115. By: Jerry on 12-03-2012 10:00:12 I agree with others who are support a balanced, moderate approach. I do think the M's need to make moves, but that is always a given. No team does nothing in an offseason. But the M's need to make SMART moves, not BIG moves. Lots of tones, the best deals aren't blockbusters. I don't see a lot of great fits ipmong the big-name free agents, especially given the money that is being given out. Greinke or Hamilton at the right price would be great, but I doubt that's possible for the M's. The team has a lot of young talnt. Maybe minor moves would be best. Guys like Grady Sizemore, Eric Chavez,Mark Reynolds, Ryan Sweeney, Nate Schierholtz, Jeff Karstens, and Dan Johnson would make some sense. Those guys would give the team some depth and options for players who aren't sure things, like Smoak, Guti, and the corner OF spots. Free agents like Stephen Drew, Dan Haren, Brandon McCarthy, and Francisco Liriano could be good values on short-term deals as well. I know that people like Geoff Baker are saying that big huge moves are the only way forward. But I don't think spending money just to make a splash is smart. |
| 116. By: maqman on 12-03-2012 11:00:53 Baker is fond of telling others how to spend their money. I’m glad Boston kept Napoli out of Seattle and out of Texas. It's an overpay but the flood of new media money makes that inevitable. Now if the Dodgers will just keep Grienke away from the Angles and Texicans it will help our cause a bit - hopefully. Jerry I agree with you on Chavez, he might still have something in the tank and if the Yankees don't bring him back he should be available on a short and cheap deal. |
| 117. By: d2ret on 12-03-2012 12:03:26 If no OFs are obtained through trade.. Sign Sizemore and Bay to deals with AB incentives. Then hope some combo of Saunders/Guti/Wells/Bay/Sizemore/Thames can give you solid OF offense (whomever is not healthy from Guti,Sizemore, Bay can be traded or let go easily) Hope Romero can push his way into this mix possibly as a LF option. Sign Hafner. Trade Vargas (the fence factor dictates that his value is highest TODAY. Sign FA pitchers. There are tons of bargains out there that wont cost picks or much money. |
| 118. By: Edman on 12-03-2012 13:10:07 Angel Pagan resigns with the Giants. |
| 119. By: Jerry on 12-03-2012 13:26:38 Here is my idea of a nice, mellow offseason, if no big trades materialize: -Grady Sizemore (ML invite similar to Millwood) -Nate Schierholtz (1 yr/2 mil) -Mark Reynolds (2 yr/ ~8 mil) -Dan Haren (~2 yr/20 mil) -Dan Johnson (ML contract with invite to spring training). Reynolds can play 1B and DH, as well as fill in at 3B. He would give the M's a good power bat off the bench, and some depth at 1B if Smoak flops. Same goes with Johnson, who is a classic AAAA player. He has tons of power and walks a lot, but has never stuck in the bigs. Given the M's position, having a guy like that around wouldn't hurt. Sizemore is a lottery ticket, but would be a great addition if he can play. With Guti and Sizemore, the M's would have two guys who will either be on the DL or solid contributors. Schierholtz and Wells would be a great platoon. Schierholtz hit .287/.360/.466 against RH hitters last year, while playing half his games in a park that kills LH batters. Wells hit .267/.364/.527 while playing half his games in a park that kills RH hitters (which should change in 2013). Both play excellent defense. That would be a great RF platoon. Haren is likely to be undervalued due to his health problems. The M's can afford to take a chance on him. These under-the-radar moves don't add superstar players, but they help the M's avoid signing bad contracts or having huge gaping holes at any spots in the lineup. Last year, this is what the M's got from these traditionally offensive-heavy positions: DH: .214/.287/.310 1B: .228/.300/.369 RF: .245/.287/.373 You don't need to sign Josh Hamilton to get dramatic improvement from those positions. Simply getting league-average production is sufficient. Adding several options lets the M's build depth and hedge their bets against another meltdown by guys like Smoak and the flexibility to give Montero more time in AAA if necessary, while not punting the chance to let them prove themselves and become parts of the future. With even those minor moves, the team would be a near lock to significantly improve in the above areas. |
| 120. By: jgstecker on 12-03-2012 13:45:33 I do kind of like the idea of Mark Reynolds signing on. He could get plenty of time in at 1B/3B/DH and works as an emergency backup at 2B and catcher with Seager and Montero able to slide over and cover those slots. I think he may get better offers than what we can put up though. |
| 121. By: Paul Martin on 12-03-2012 14:18:14 @117. The same people that wanted us to trade Fister before his numbers faded are saying we should trade Vargas now. Vargas will not be cheap in arbitration, so the team that trades for him has to be prepared to pay the guy! Teams understand the type of pitcher Vargas is, and how our defense and Safeco field have helped his numbers. Given this info, and the money he will make in arbitration, Seattle will not get back enough in a return to merit a trade. I am not in favor of trading him for fringe prospects like Jack did with Fister. I would rather sign Vargas to a two year deal for a salary more favorable (per year) than he gets in arbitration. |
| 122. By: Paul Martin on 12-03-2012 14:22:36 Given the weak free agent class, the $$$ being thown out there, and offensive players not wanting to come here, help is going to have to come via trade. What Jack does this offseason (or doesn't do) will define his legacy in Seattle. I am very skeptical but sure hope Jack proves me wrong... |
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