| By Jason A. Churchill |  | By 10-25-2011 |
We move right along with the in-depth look at any and all potential targets for the Seattle Mariners this winter. Some won't be legitimate candidates at all, some will be, but they all need to be addressed since we don't know the thought process of the M's nor the other clubs that could be involved.
The possibility of Logan Morrison is on the brain today.
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potential-winter-target:-logan-morrison
Comments
The following 39 comment(s) for this article are shown below:
| 1. By: jgstecker on 10-25-2011 10:54:54 I'd be tempted to pay a little more for Morrison. I think it'd be worth parting with Walker to get him, maybe throwing in some outfield depth like Saunders and Halman. I'd wait until after we're out of the Prince Fielder derby though. |
| 2. By: maqman on 10-25-2011 13:18:32 I'd thought about Morrison but looking at his numbers I don't think that he's not that much better than what we have, at least not to the point of giving up Walker for him. I hoe we are not an entry in the Fielder derby. I grant he would be very good for three or four years but after that he's going to be a huge albatross. Take a look at his father's career, he faded big after he turned age 31. |
| 3. By: Jason A. Churchill on 10-25-2011 14:20:49 Morrison is a developing player, maqman. He, like Smoak, for example, is better going forward than he has been. He's better than Smoak. |
| 4. By: jgstecker on 10-25-2011 14:51:12 If Morrison's upside is better than Smoak's, then I'd definitely put Walker on the table. But my belief in Smoak may put me in the minority. And while Fielder may become an albatross (I don't buy any of the arguments for it), he's as strong a lock for the next four years as any option realistically out there. And as bad as his contract gets, it won't ever be as bad as the Ichiro/Bradley/Figgins trifecta we've been living through. |
| 5. By: KingFelix on 10-25-2011 14:53:52 I would love to see us sign Fielder to play 1B/DH then maybe a deal of Carp, Triunfel and arm that is not Paxson, Hultzen or Walker gets us Morrison. Then we have a nice young lineup building for 2013. RF Ichiro CF Gutz 2B Ackley DH/1B Fielder DH/1B Smoak LF Morrison C Olivo SS Ryan 3B Seager |
| 6. By: MarinerCoug on 10-25-2011 15:21:09 KingFelix: You're not going to get an already league-average player that has the realistic potential to be an All-Star with that package. You can't get talented, club-controlled players for your discards. If you want a Morrison, the package is going to START with Walker, and then include at least another piece or two that are going to hurt to give up. That being said, I see no one in the Mariners lieup that fits the bill of what Morrison has and offers in the near-future, so I'd think Jack Z would have to think long and hard about Morrison if he became available at a price of Walker, Franklin, OF piece (Wells or Saunders) and a Wilhelmson-type bullpen arm. |
| 7. By: Jason A. Churchill on 10-25-2011 15:36:11 Walker, Franklin +? It won't happen, and the reason is because that is insane. Walker might be too much by himself to offer for Morrison. You can make that argument. Walker and Franklin IS too much, unless you think Morrison IS Joey Votto, and that IS not the case. How's that for IS's? |
| 8. By: dafix_isin on 10-25-2011 15:36:40 In everyone's humble opinion, who would be the harder get, Logan Morrison or Adam Jones? I know, I know, you can't go home again, but it sure would be nice if we had a righty with Safeco power and good defensive skills. And again, I know, I know, we have both Wells and Olivo as RHBs, but Jones would be mighty tempting. And we all know, the O's have a longer way to go than the M's along the rebuilding arc. |
| 9. By: Jason A. Churchill on 10-25-2011 15:39:01 As for KingFelix's lineup -- looks nice. Like MarinersCoug said, it will cost more to get Morrison. And if it's going to cost Walker or Paxton, plus Franklin? Just be OK dealing Pineda and go get Justin Upton, instead. |
| 10. By: Jason A. Churchill on 10-25-2011 15:41:36 dafiz_isin, Morrison is the answer. More club control left, better bat. Jones is an average defender in center and I don't like him at Safeco. Many of his power hits are to the gaps, mostly in left-center. If you want a new centerfielder, wait for Gutierrez to hit some in 2012, trade him for a better one, like Span, BJ Upton. |
| 11. By: MarinerCoug on 10-25-2011 15:48:51 JAC- Clever with the capitilization of 'is' multiple times there... Walker and Franklin too much? Maybe. I must admit some ignorance not having watched as much NL ball as some. Maybe the Ms wouldn't/shouldn't have to spend so much. However, to think it is going to be achieved by giving way our unwanted carp IS (see what I did there with both?) foolish. As for Walker and Franklin, I'lss say this about their trade value... neither has excelled above 'A' ball for an extended period of time. |
| 12. By: rjfrik on 10-25-2011 18:44:59 as JAC said there is no way Morrison will cost two of our top 5 guys in our minor league system. He would cost, as many have said one of our pitchers and maybe some other minor piece, in my opinion. The only way Walker, Franklin, OF piece and bullpen arm would be sent for Morrison is if Bavasi was pulling the trigger. |
| 13. By: Jason A. Churchill on 10-25-2011 18:49:20 Coug, The "A" ball thing means zilch. ZILCH. Walker is among the better pitching prospects in baseball. The fact that he's had just one year of ball under his belt and hasn't "excelled" above Class-A ball does nothing to hinder his value. It's not like he's struggled above A ball. He's a future potential No. 1 and everyone team in the league knows it. |
| 14. By: short on 10-25-2011 19:26:04 One thing to consider about Morrison is that the M's need to think about the post-Ichiro era. If we can find an OF with a good bat that may not be a good fit defensively in left field, he might be still be worth getting to replace Ichiro in 2013. Or if Ichiro turns out to be washed up after all and decides to call it quits next June. The team needs to decide what to do about Ichiro and if the decision is not to sign him to an extention, they could really use a Logan Morrison. |
| 15. By: Boy9988 on 10-25-2011 20:06:57 Logan Morrison would be a great pickup for this team, but if its going to cost me, Pineda, Hultzen, Walker, Paxton or Franklin, then I'm hanging up. I would rather hold on to the pitchers. If I was to give up any of those guys, I want a proven bat like Votto or J Upton. |
| 16. By: yobi25 on 10-25-2011 21:15:13 How about something like Paxton, Chiang, and Triunfel? |
| 17. By: wbathurs on 10-25-2011 22:43:38 Jason, How would you compare Andrew Friedman's approach which seems to be to hold onto prospects unless a really compelling offer is made, to Jack's approach who seems to be willing to trade just about anybody. It may be hard to do a good comparison since we don't have a lot of talent approaching free agency that would need to be replaced by prospects. Also, how do you think the Ms view their top three pitching prospects (Walker, Hultzen, Paxten). I would imagine there must be a bit of debate on holding onto them versus trading any of them. There is a good chance Felix will be gone in free agency in a few years, or even traded. Also, pitchers break down so one of the current staff would need immediate replacements. If only one or two of the three prospects pans out, then maybe someone could argue that all three should be held onto. Also, I know they would consider timelines as far as the influx of talent and hoping to put together a competitive ball club. |
| 18. By: Adam H. Wong on 10-25-2011 22:50:02 Boy9988, The problem with pitching prospects is that their success is fickle. More fickle than position prospects for sure. I agree that it would hurt to let go of a top pitching prospect like that, but if we trade Walker, for example, there is still Paxton and Hultzen waiting on the farm. The system is loaded with pitching prospects right now, and it makes sense to trade of one of those pieces to compensate for a weakness the franchise has now. |
| 19. By: valencia on 10-26-2011 02:35:05 The problem with Logan Morrison is that his defense sucks. -20 runs in 185 games so far, that's like the positional adjustment from CF/2B to DH. It's Manny Ramirez bad, without the Manny Ramirez bat. If his defense doesn't improve, it's doubtful he cracks 3 WAR. Granted he's still young and could improve, but that's the huge risk you take with Morrison. Is that worth Walker? The fact he's considered a top 10 pitcher yet hasn't even passed A-ball speaks for itself. If he keeps this up he's a potential #1 prospect. I would consider Paxton or Campos, but Walker is a rare pitcher with 6+ WAR upside and Hultzen is almost guaranteed to be 3-4 WAR. I can't say the same about Logan Morrison. |
| 20. By: masonb on 10-26-2011 09:45:05 I think it all comes down to what Jason posed a couple of weeks back and that is: Is this offensive player the answer? Logan Morrison is a great player, but he's not the answer and the fact that his defense is horrible and he doesn't have a spot at first gives me the opinion that he shouldn't be acquired if it involves Paxton, Walker or really Campos for that matter. He's really a similar to Carp in that there just isn't a lot of positional flexibility. If you could get him for a couple of B type prospects (Triunfel, Chiang, Burgoon, etc.) then you do it, but I wouldn't give up a premium pitching prospect for the guy unless all other options were exhausted to get a bat, and I still then probably wouldn't do it. Just a random thought I had today: Pineda for Jay Bruce. Who hangs up first? |
| 21. By: Boy9988 on 10-26-2011 11:52:55 "Just a random thought I had today: Pineda for Jay Bruce. Who hangs up first?" Seattle |
| 22. By: Rudolf on 10-26-2011 12:59:21 Disagree. I think we do that in a nanosecond. |
| 23. By: KingFelix on 10-26-2011 13:32:08 Jason, are you suggesting we could land Justin Upton straight up for Pineda? If so, we should make that move. |
| 24. By: Edman on 10-26-2011 13:45:24 I wouldn't trade any of the pitching for Morrison. If you consider that he's ultimately going to end up at 1B or DH, because of his lack of defense, then deal someone who is redundant, deal Smoak. With Smoak in the deal, it shouldn't require Walker, Paxton or Pineda to get a deal done. Don't take the surplus of pitching for granted. It can disappear quite quickly by attrition. And arm injury. Mental problems transitioning to the MLB. Catricala is going to need a place to play fairly soon, if he keeps hitting the ball well. LF might ultimately be his destination. If other teams want one of those guys, let them come to Seattle. I'm sure Jack will make it clear that they are available for the right price. Make them come to you. As the saying goes, you can never have enough pitching. Jack is a good card player. I would love to have a bug in his office to listen in on how he negotiates. |
| 25. By: aerichner on 10-26-2011 13:55:22 @ 20, I dont think either team would be offended but if one team is gonna ask for extra pieces in the deal it would probably be the Reds which might make Jack hang up. Morrison: if I can get him, I get him, having Smoak/Carp shouldn't be a deterrent. You can deal them in a separate deal. If the price is right, Jack will get him and if not he'll simply pass. He might overpay for a Votto/Upton but not a Morrison/Swisher. |
| 26. By: aerichner on 10-26-2011 13:55:33 @ 20, I dont think either team would be offended but if one team is gonna ask for extra pieces in the deal it would probably be the Reds which might make Jack hang up. Morrison: if I can get him, I get him, having Smoak/Carp shouldn't be a deterrent. You can deal them in a separate deal. If the price is right, Jack will get him and if not he'll simply pass. He might overpay for a Votto/Upton but not a Morrison/Swisher. |
| 27. By: aerichner on 10-26-2011 13:56:02 not sure what happened there, my apologies |
| 28. By: agcmmgdh on 10-26-2011 16:44:09 @King Felix I'm certainly not Jason and he might tell you otherwise but I don't think AZ would entertain an offer of Pineda for Upton. Even if they wanted to trade him my guess is they would require at least another prospect and I don't see why they would coming off the season they just did. Just my .02 cents. |
| 29. By: Jerry on 10-26-2011 16:55:14 I think Morrison would be a great addition, assuming the price is right. The guys I'd be reluctant to deal would be Paxton, Walker, and Franklin. And Hultzen, obviously. If we could manage to land him without moving those three, I would pull the trigger. I don't really see Morrison as a guy who will develop into an elite player. I've always kinda pegged him as a Jason Kubel type, but with a bit of upside. Thats a good player, though. The important thing is that Morrison would be around to help this club for the long term. I don't think the M's are going to contend next year. They need to stockpile talent. Going after Fielder, or trading for Votto, doesn't make much sense to me. Morrison, on the other hand, would be a great move. He could help the club get better in 2012, but won't be past his prime (or crazy expensive) by 2013-2015. That is when the M's will really need the help. |
| 30. By: rotoenquire on 10-26-2011 22:58:16 At age 24 with his first full season under his belt. Morrison's power numbers look good. His AVG. tho good at times in the minors did not look all that good. Also add his poor defense and I am not 100% sold on getting him for what it will cost the M's. Building our minor leagues for the long haul. Trading players on a high note, before they cost too much is the plan they should stick too. Wasn't there an article not to far back stating that here? Fielder and losing that #1 pick is also a bad idea for right now. I see next off season as the year to make a push in free agency and with our minors. Unless Jack can pull a fast one like we have seen in the past on a solid up and coming player.. I say stand pat on the large deals... |
| 31. By: Edman on 10-26-2011 23:49:12 If there are no changes to the player's agreement, Seattle would not lose their #1 pick, because the are not in the top 15 teams in regard to standings. They would lose their second round pick. |
| 32. By: KingFelix on 10-27-2011 11:43:14 Roto, I just see it differently regarding your plan to wait until 2013. I see it as a two step process. First we need to add a big bat i.e. Fielder or Upton type of bat for 2012 to help take the pressure off of Ackley, Smoak and maybe Carp to carry the offense and hopefully help their confidence and then add one more bat in 2013 to hopefully a nice core of young bats and compete for a playoff spot in 2013. |
| 33. By: nwmsfan on 10-27-2011 12:31:29 I don't think adding two impact bats this winter is so out of the question and it should be more of a probability. Consider what jack z has done in the past on the trade front but now he has legitimate young pieces. It will have to be combined with free agency to max out the return. Even if the Ms go after fielder and blow all their cash they still have the cupboard somewhat chalked- even if you leave out mp tw jp dh you still have campos, er. Ramirez, snow, capps, catricala, carp/smoak, seager etc. Add in one of those big 4 and I think you could fetch quite a player. How bout since everyone is saying prince will wear out midway through a long term deal we go 5/30? Or even 4/32? It's more per year but it's also less total risk. Plus it's an incentive for him to hit the market again before it's too late. Then find something out there to be impact LF, 3b, dh. What about checking in on snider or Thames from Tor? They can't fit them both in and they could be at worst a platoon power bat. Not saying that would be the main move plus it wouldnt cost a ton Lastly is anyone else thinking SD would deal headley? They're a couple years away and he's only getting pricier. Byrnes might want to add a few arms to the system with Latos being shaky |
| 34. By: Jerry on 10-27-2011 13:05:40 nwmsfan, I guess that depends on what you mean by "impact." The M's need to get better at multiple positions, and need to focus on the long term (ie, not an older player). But 'impact' isn't restricted to just big-name free agents or huge blockbuster trade guys. For me, given the M's position right now, I think maintaining payroll flexibility is crucial as well. I hope that the M's make the hard but wise decision to let Ichiro go after 2012. I'd rather see them leave a bit of payroll flexibility for 2013, when they are more likely to be one big player away from having a shot at the playoffs. Geoff Baker wrote a good piece today about Grady Sizemore. I've thought about him as a potential signing too. He is a great fit for this club, I think. 1. He's a local guy 2. He's an impact bat 3. He's an impact defensive player 4. He's going to be cheap, because of injury worries 5. If he is hurt and can't play, the M's have solid Plan B's in Casper Well, Trayvon Robinson, and Mike Saunders. 6. He won't require a long-term deal When he's healthy, Sizemore is one of the most complete players in baseball: speed, power, plate discipline, and very good defense. The M's are in a great position to take a risk. Sizemore is that guy, assuming the Indians don't exercise his option. He'd be a great addition. |
| 35. By: valencia on 10-27-2011 15:50:32 5/30 is ridiculous, that's 150 total and Fielder's probably looking for 8/20 for 160 total. Headley is a nice name but he's not moving for another year or 2, and he's already 27. He's a guy you add to get over the hump, not a guy you add during rebuilding. Sizemore is an okay idea, HUGE risk but decent return. Problem is I doubt he comes to Seattle to reestablish value when plenty of teams would love to sign him for a cheap one year deal. |
| 36. By: Adam B. on 10-27-2011 17:17:48 Personally I think if you're going to deal some of the Mariners young pitching talent, you should go for broke and get a bat with real impact value and some form of cost control. I would suggest something like a package of Michael Pineda, Jose Campos, Carlos Triunfel and Trayvon Robinson to the Reds for Joey Votto and Yasmani Grandel. The fact that Votto is still relatively cheap (9.5M in '12 and 17M in '13) and Yasmani Grandel fills a position of desperation offsets the value lost in a talented and cost-controlled "ace" and a young pitcher with very real upside. Then the M's could use the remaining "Prince Fielder" money to sign/trade for an upside #2 who will be slightly more expensive (Oswalt, Danks, etc.) who while more expensive and less talented then Pineda, will still provide better upside for lower cost. In other words: Votto/Grandel/Oswalt = $25M/10WAR~ > Fielder/Pineda/Olivo = $28M/9WAR~ |
| 37. By: masonb on 10-27-2011 17:49:40 The only problem is that that package doesn't probably even get you Votto, much less Grandal too. I think Campos needs another year before he's got that kind of value. The Reds would probably ask for Franklin and Pineda and then some. I'd rather get Jay Bruce for Pineda and maybe a Triunfel. He's under contract longer and I think has the potential to be just as good, if not better than Votto very soon |
| 38. By: Adam B. on 10-27-2011 19:06:06 My package might be a bit light, and the odds of that kind of package getting a Votto/Grandel type return are probably better next year when Votto is a year closer to his big cash-out. Still, Votto is about to get very expensive, the Reds have a desperate need of a front-line starter, and Brandon Phillips is coming out of his arbitration years and expecting to get paid. As far as Jay Bruce is concerned, the Reds have much less incentive to deal him over Votto. He's signed for a lot longer and a lot more reasonable contract than what Votto will get after 2012, and he plays at a position (RF/CF) where the Reds don't have an incumbent player waiting in the wings (Yonder Alonso). I'd be all for the M's acquiring Bruce--Or Justin Upton for that matter; but with several more years of control and similar talent (4-5WAR~ vs 6~ for Votto), their respective teams will ask for compensation at least matching what I proposed. |
| 39. By: valencia on 10-28-2011 01:50:13 I wonder, is Votto's price really that high? Adrian Gonzalez got Casey Kelly, Reymond Fuentes, Anthony Rizzo, and a PTBNL in his walk year. There's no way 2 years of Votto could be worth Pineda who's about 5x as valuable as Kelly since he's actually pitched well in the MLB. Granted the Reds aren't as likely to deal Votto as the Padres were A-Gon that year. If you really really want Votto, I would wait until next year when the Reds will look to deal him unless they pull a MIL and trade everything for a push. Reds probably don't want to deal him until he has a year left, and we probably don't want him until 2013 anyway. Plus we can see if Smoak/Carp are good enough, of if we need to get the 1B bat. And $17 million/one-year left isn't nearly as valuable as $26.5/2 years is. Hell at that price he might just be worth Campos, if Campos establishes himself. And if you want a Catcher just draft Zunino with the #3. Or sign Miguel Montero next year. |
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