This week’s Farm Report is up in the P-I for Wednesday, a piece I had been chewing on for more than a year.
Talking with Roger Hansen, the M’s catching coordinator, is a lot of fun, since all he really cares about is the catchers’ defense, which is obviously the only real question in Jeff Clement’s game.
And for anyone who wonders how much Hansen’s opinion matters to the organization’s front office and decision makers, wonder no more.
Prior to the 2005 Draft, Hansen sat up at UW and watched Clement and his USC Trojans take on the Huskies. He sat with Pat Gillick and Benny Looper and gave them his assessment on Clement.
Here’s what Hansen said about that exchange — this is not in the Farm Report linked above.
“Pat asked me ‘can he catch the ball, Roger?’ and I said ‘yes, absolutely. His feet are fine, he has the hands. It’s going to take awhile, so if the patience is going to be there, he’ll catch.’”
The Mariners, with Bill Bavasi and Bob Fontaine at the helm drafted Clement largely based on Hansen’s belief that Clement will catch in the big leagues, so if Hansen is telling Bavasi and Fontaine that Clement is ready to catch in the big leagues, then they are probably going to believe him.
Photo by Paul Marsh
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Great P-I piece, Jason. I’m glad to hear that he’s doing better behind the plate. I think a lot of people heard how poorly he was receiving the ball when he was drafted and are assuming he hasn’t improved much since then. When I heard that he was against a move to first base a couple months ago I thought that was a good indication that he wanted to be known as a good catcher, even though a position change would probably benefit his offensive production in the long run. Thanks for the update.
If Clement is as ready as Hansen says why is he not in Seattle catching twice a week and DHing two or three times? It would prepare him to be the full time catcher next year and preclude Vidro from having his optin vest. Not to mention he is more of an impact bat than Vidro or Johjima.
If switching catchers mid season or platooning would be weird for the staff, what if the catchers were assigned their own pitchers? Example: Kenji gets Felix, Batista and Silva, Clement gets Washburn and Bedard.. or something like that. That would be interesting.
I like this picture better than the one they used in the rag version. :->
I’m, quite frankly, tired of people clamoring for him to be the DH right now — at the expense of his catching duties. No offense to MW3 here, and a lot of people are asking that very question: Why isn’t Clement the DH right now, when he can get his catching work done on the side and for 2-3 games a week?
1) Kenji Johjima is the M’s starting catcher right now. The M’s will give him as many innings as he can handle, and it’s not prudent to have a 3/4 catcher rotation (where one catcher plays 3 days a week and the other plays 4). It just doesn’t happen, nor should it, really. I won’t speak for Jason, but I do know that this is one thing that doesn’t have a lot of noticeable effect on the box scores but can be enough of a disruption that a team can be distracted by it.
2) Jamie Burke is the backup catcher. The M’s are not going to release him to call up Clement. Nor should they. He’s very well suited to this role, and the pitchers are comfortable with him, too. In this ‘veteran-loving’ clubhouse where experience is debatably overvalued, a guy like Burke isn’t going to be removed from the team.
3) Jeff Clement should not be seen as a DH. Metric f-tons of his value comes from the fact that he’s likely to be an above-average hitting catcher. Move him to DH or even 1B, and a lot of his value as an asset to the team is diminished. By sticking at catcher, which he clearly has shown that he can handle — even if he’s not the greatest defender there — it makes the team all the more better by being able to add one more above-average bat into the lineup (at DH or 1B).
I’m definitely with Churchill and others on this — let’s let Clement spend as much time as needed in AAA completing his development as a starting catcher. Yes, his bat could definitely help the M’s right now — just as Morrow’s arm (arguably) helped the M’s bullpen last year. He’s still young enough, however, and unrefined enough to stick out most of the season in AAA. Come September, of course, he’ll likely be up for good.
I have no problem with Clement being called up IF our offense does not straighten out. Catching a couple times a week, working on the side, and DHing is just fine IMO.
Did something happen to Michael Saunders this morning?
I’m definately getting there, Paul. I had been calling for Clement to DH with Seattle’s apparent “win now” approach, but now that he is indeed making significant strides behind the plate it no longer makes any sense to move him and waste all that development. However, Clement has no value to the team in AAA (he’s not helping the team win), so if he is still not ready to catch by the start of next season (I think he will) then I will be probably once again be calling for a position change. At some point you have to get the bat in the lineup.
5
if your talking about last night. the box looked a little weird,but the log says he was a defensive replacement.
saunders sure lookin like the real deal!
up to tacoma at the break ?
I like JonBBT’s idea of having Clement be the personal catcher for Bedard and Washburn myself. If you remember during Greg Maddux heyday with the Braves he always had his own catcher at the expense of benching Javy Lopez. Also I believe keeping Vidro’s 9.5 million option off of next years books has to be a serious goal of the front office this season. That money would be far better spent locking up Felix long term.
#7: Naw, it was this morning’s game. But yeah, I was worried for a minute there; then finally thought to check the recap. He was a defensive replacement in the 9th.
Saunders was just due a day off.
And he’s en fuego.
He’s lighting up lefties, righties, home, away, night, day, straight, gay, good, bad, cold, warm, you name it.
He’s a nice prospect right now.
I still worry a bit about his longer swing, but it hasn’t hurt him to this point.
Jason, nice write up and thank you.
Does Hansen travel with the M’s? Or is he hanging out at Tacoma specifically with Clement?
Oh, and any word on Scott’s injury?
Hansen does not travel with the M’s. He the roving coordinator, so he splits his time, unevenly, between affiliates, depending on where the catchers are.
Tacoma and West Tenn a lot right now to help Jeff, Rob and Adam.
Moore is definitely passing up Johnson on the depth chart.
Why wont they trade Johnson i hear alot of teams like him?
I smell a Johnson+ for Griffey deal this summer.
Jason, with Morse on the DL for the year now, are there any rumblings from the M’s in terms of possible moves or does this mean Norton takes Morse’s spot on the bench?
Jason it was reported on KJR that Bedard might have a torn labrum have u heard anything bout this and are the M’s just hiding it, but why would they say he is starting if he has a tear?
Would Cincy take that deal, I’m assuming the + would probably pitching?
16 - I know it was Morse who had a torn labrum and is now out for the year, can’t swing a bat for 4 months.
People on Seattletimes forum are hearing that Bedard might have a torn labrum, a problem with his hip that is causing the inflammation, but if he did why pitch with it, unless thats why he is throwing Thursday to see if he still can?
I think they like the bench the way it is…
re: Bedard
We’ve talked about this — and first off, it’s not his shoulder labrum that is being rumored, it’s the hip…
There is no reason to hide it. It’s possible they are waiting for a second or third opinion before doing anything. But the latest I heard was that he was coming off the DL Saturday.
re:huhwhat
I deal centered on Johnson? Sure. Maybe Johnson-Feierabend.
Griffey isn’t ideal here, because the Mariners need to upgrade the defense as much as anything else, but Griffey is better defensively, at least by a little, than Ibanez.
And if Wilkerson is going to be DL’d, too, maybe that’s where Griffey plays 50 percent of the time.
The missing piece still remains a defender in the outfield.
Jason,
I have a question about your top ten list for this week.
What’s the scouting report on Kyle Parker? I am very intriqued that a pitcher drafted so low can have above average stuff and be doing so well.
send me an email on that, slack, I’ll toss that into the InBox Mailbag for this week.
Jason,
When you say you smell a Griffey deal, are you speculating, or have you heard something? Do you think summer because that will give Jr. time to hit number 600 in Cincy? I see that Bruce is hot, might that prompt them to make a move ASAP?
I’m just talking.
With Jocketty taking over it creates a weird scenario.
Walt the GM would deal Griffey as soon as he thought Bruce was ready, which could be right now.
Walt the person might want to hang onto Junior for a little while. He’s always been enamored with Griffey.
well Morse looks done for the year (per Bakers blog) It’s to bad Wlad is hurt. Hopefully he gets better soon and gets a quick promotion.
But we don’t want Wlad coming up and starting versus left-handers… right?
If it’s one thing we have learned the past few years with all the player development and scouting coverage this city has in its blogosphere, it’s that young players need to play regularly.
“I smell a Johnson+ for Griffey deal this summer.”
Stop getting my hopes up. There’s nothing more I’d like to see than Griffey wearing a M’s uniform again.
I think he’ll be here next year though. I don’t know why the Reds would pick up his option. They’re a young team with it seems like as many prospects as the Rays.
23 - Well Griffey did hit number 597 today, you never know, he could knock the last 3 out this weekend.
Griffey makes more sense than Thomas, but only if he and/or Raul is the DH.
The M’s offense blows chunks.
Hey Jason just wondering have u heard anything bout us being the Mystery team for The Big Hurt. I mean yes people say he wont help us but I think he will. He can still hit he always starts off slow in his career. I am hoping that we are that team?
Who is saying he wouldn’t help? I haven’t read anyone reputable at all that has said that.
it’s not a GREAT fit, but he’s better than Vidro, so he’d obviously help.
The Mariners ARE the “mystery team” and made a second offer either last night or today.
But it still seems like Oakland is the choice.
O damn thats great to hear but damn if he wanted to go back to Oakland he would rather then not hear anything else but hopefully he decides to come to Seattle
He must be either dickering for money - understandable - or there is a playing time issue.
I wouldn’t mind Griffey in Right over the Willie/Wilkerson Platoon. That’s just me though.
Ideally I would hope they slot Ibanez at DH, Griffey in one corner and Wlad in the other. Actually I would take any sort of setup if that meant Vidro’s not starting.
Seattle will give him playing time and I think Seattle is still a contender this year we got more homers then Oakland and we both have good pitching but I think if Thomas made a move here we would be much better, we will give him the money and time I hope.
Jason what would it take to lure Thomas here?
I know he can be signed for the minimum, but with Oakland competing too how much do you think it will take to sign him.
I dunno… I don’t have any clue what Oakland might be offering.
I would imagine he’d get more playing time in Seattle.
I’d like to know why you say this, Jason. I went through Jocketty’s entire tenure with the Cardinals and never once (that I saw) did he trade one of his better players mid-season for prospects, and only a handful of times during the offseason.
Where do you think he fit better here or Oakland?
Jon,
Jocketty isn’t stupid, he has Jay Bruce, a right fielder, near ready and currently without a place to play.
Griffey is the easy move here. Jocketty has a rebuilding job to continue, but he almost has to start fresh because Krivsky is a borderline moron.
Griffey is not a ticket seller in Cincy anymore, which is why they have tried to trade him in the past, and after his 600th home run, there just isn’t any reason to keep him and so many reasons to deal him.
You absolutely cannot take Jocketty’s career tendencies with anything more than a grain of salt here, because he’s rarely been in this situation.
He’s never came aboard a young, clearly rebuilding team with an aging veteran/former superstar ripe to be traded.
But, if you look a little harder, you will see Jocketty has indeed traded quality veterans for younger players.
1995 - RHP Ken Hill to Cle for D. Bell, R. Heiserman, P.McNeal
1997 - LHP Danny Jackson traded with two other vets to SD for S. Livingstone and P. Plantier, two youngsters, and a the veteran Fernando.
1998 - RHP Todd Stottlemyre dealt to Texas with SS Royce Clayton for three young players.
Why, for example, are those years different than just about every year since then?
The Cardinals, since 1995, have been in the race every year but 97 and 99.
You don’t trade good veterans when you are in a pennant race.
So why would he do it now in Cincy?
They aren’t going to be in any pennant race, which puts him right back in building mode, the same way he was in 95-98 with the Cards.
It’s really that simple, but if you want another reason…
Griffey has a big-money option for 2009 or will be a free agent, so a new GM trying to put some good pieces together trades that player for parts useful in 2009 and beyond.
Jocketty certainly isn’t the type to make mid-summer deals, he’s like Gillick in that manner. He believes you get market value in the winter and you grossly overpay in July.
But he’s also rarely, just as rare as trading away vets in July, added major pieces to help his contending team.
The chances of Griffey being traded this summer are very, very high for several reasons, as stated above, and Jocketty’s presence does nothing to change that.
Fair enough.. maybe I was assuming that the Reds could stick around in the playoff race, but that is probably too much to ask from them at this point. And I agree that Griffey will be moved this summer. Jocketty has just been on the other side of things for most of his tenure in St Louis so it’s hard to assume anything.
The one thing Jocketty has always done, though, is remain smart.
The smart thing to do would be to trade Griffey,open up full PT for Bruce and get a player or two in return that can help in 2009+.
He’s so rarely been in this cirumstance as a GM that we can’t even look back and take anything from his tendencies with the Cards.
yeah..
I wonder how long it’s going to be before we hear something on Frank Thomas. I’d imagine fairly soon, since there is a somewhat surprising bidding war going on.
It’s pretty clear that both USSM and LookoutLanding have determined that Griffey’s defense is, at best, on par with Raul’s (and for those of you who don’t read LL/USSM — it’s consensus that Raul’s a liability in the field). While he’s certainly not the asset he was, defensively, earlier in his career, I’m fairly certain he’s not as big of a liability as Raul is. Ideally, yeah, the M’s could find a power-hitting outfielder, preferably left-handed, that happens to also play at least league-average defense. But this isn’t the ideal world.
I’d be OK with Griffey playing in the OF, but I think even he’s aware that getting some time off from the field (i.e. as a DH) would help him. With 10-5 rights, too, Griffey can control his destination (by his consent), were he to be traded. That should limit what the M’s would have to give up in return for Griffey.
I know there’s a lot of people on the ‘net who would not give up anything in trade to get Griffey, but I’m not one of those. He can still play the field, and would bring a bit of excitement back to Safeco, I’d think. I, too, would trade Rob Johnson + a pitcher or two to get Griffey.
And Ichiro has always wanted to play with Griffey. Ichiro’s established himself as a CF very well indeed, so I don’t think the team is crazy enough to move him back to RF so Griffey could play CF (THAT would be a disaster). But after watching both Morse and Bloomquist look very, very, VERY silly out in RF, they need to fix that problem right now. Wlad’s timing couldn’t be any worse, of course, and I really don’t think Wilkerson’s going to get much more of a leash. Maybe they could call up Reed for LF and move Raul to RF (since Reed’s noodle arm wouldn’t be a good fit in RF, and Raul’s arm isn’t his problem). But as bad as the OF defense is, they can’t ignore the offense. Zero walks against a normally wild Cabrera last night is unacceptable — especially when the “RF” weakly hacks twice at the first pitch.
Yes, Frank Thomas would be an upgrade at DH. Griffey would be a better idea, though, because he could also still play the field. And he provides the lefty power this team has been looking for pretty much since he left.
And I’m still waiting for McLaren to show why we need Miguel Cairo on this team. What a friggin’ waste of a roster spot. I’d rather keep Vidro around as a pinch-hitter (his $9 million option wouldn’t vest, and they have to pay him for THIS year even if they dump him) than Cairo for, well, no reason.
I just wish there was a decent-hitting OF out there that could actually play good defense. I’m really, really, REALLY tired of watching these outfielders give up doubles and triples…
Whelp. Hurt’s going to Oakland. Stings a little, sure, but the M’s have bigger problems to solve than what would’ve been solved by adding Thomas for the pro-rated league minimum.
And if the rumors were anywhere near true that Bavasi was dangling a 2009 contract to Thomas to try and lure him, then a MUCH bigger disaster has been avoided…
What USSM and LL probably don’t see yet is that Griffey is at a disadvantage when it comes to all the sabr stats for defense.
Without formulating it in (it’s totally unintentional) the stats skew to players that play in bigger ballparks.
He’s got more room to cover and gets to this % of balls hit out there, so he must be better…
Ridiculous.
I think his biggest strength (trading nothing for a hall of famer in his prime) is somewhat negated by the was business is now being done at the deadline. In the Julys past he picked McGwire and Rolen for basically nothing, now I think most teams will just take the draft pick.
well that was weird
Does that look right now, JI? Fixed the HTML for ya…
I love it when Mariner fans talk about Jr. Just love it. It’s like he’s still ours, you know? The way it always was . . .
Jason, I have no evidence or sense from the media as to Johjima’s future with the Mariners. Is there even “speculation” out there?
I do recall Burke signed a dual minor/major league contract with the team this season, so there was some indication that the team was expecting Clement sooner than later.
But not even the Japanese media is talking about Johjima’s future with or without the M’s.
uh yeah, I’m missing a few helpful words (that I forgot to put) there, but OK.
And I agree that Griffey can’t be as bad as Raul, because he’s not as slow and doesn’t take wacky routes.
So could Grif realistically be netted for Johnson, Feierabend and a couple non-prospects?
I remember having this debate in some forum months ago and that was basically where the package started, but it seems fairly low. Maybe it’s because I’m putting Griffey on a slight pedistle as a life-long Mariner fan. I’m not sure though, I think I’m going to pull up some similar trades. Maybe the Larry Walker trade Jocketty pulled would be similar.
Wow, Jocketty got Walker back in 04 for practically nothing. Walker was about the same age as Junior is now and were both producing fairily similarly. Guess Griffey probably wouldn’t be all that much.
Oops.. I take back the “fairly similarly” part. Griffey is a much better producer than Walker was leading up to 2004. Junior would cost more, but probably not much more. Sorry for the multiple comments, i’m not thinking them all the way out and now I’m rambling. My bad.
Re:22,
Jason, I have tried sending you an e-mail on the subject (Kyle Parker) but it hasn’t been getting through.
Can you give me your e-mail address just to double check and see if I have it right?
Thanks.
Walker hit .298/.424/.589 the year he was traded, Griffey won’t come anywhere near that.
slack,
Click Here
Jason, Dave Cameron was the first person I ever saw posit that the saber defensive stats are skew towards OFs in bigger parks (in discussions about Reed’s monster season two years ago and Winn’s stellar numbers when he roamed LF for us). I doubt very greatly that he’s ignoring that aspect when evaluating Griffey.
I can’t comment on LL, since I hardly ever visit there.
Speaking of Parker, he is dealing tonight. 1 hit through 6 innings so far
Kyle freaking Parker.
Ichiro!
Greenie!
Then he’s just flat our WRONG - if he’s saying Griffey is, at best, Ibanez’s equal defensively.
Hey Jason I have a crazy Idea, now only if they were interested but its not gonna happen but how bout this, the M’s fire, Bill, Mac, and Pentland, and hire Jay Buhner, as Manager, Edgar Martinez, as Hitting Coach, and for GM I dont know one that is out there that we would like, but I think we would do well with Bone as manager.
65 - I haven’t seen him say that, but that doesn’t mean he hasn’t.
Why does everyone think that just because someone played they would make a great coach? It’s been proven time and time again that that’s not always the case. If Jay and/or Gar want to coach, let them start in the minors and prove themselves.
Well, a quick Google on USSM finds this comment(from 2006):
Believe me, I’ve had many private conversations with Dave about Griffey — especially right around the time of Griffey’s return to Safeco, and it’s very, very clear that he doesn’t see Griffey as a viable option in the outfield at all. In this discussion, Dave even speculates that we probably grossly overrated Griffey’s defense, even in his prime defensive years.
I like Dave Cameron a ton, but I don’t always agree with him — even recognizing that he’s probably more well-researched in his opinions than I am in mine. But in the data I’ve seen and read, other than in the defensive metrics (which I argue are very, very immature and misleading — to the point of being almost useless, but certainly more improved as time progresses), Griffey probably wouldn’t kill a team in the OF. I’m convinced OF defense cannot be ignored, but I’m not as dogmatic in my use of fielding statistics/metrics as he is.
Griffey shouldn’t be a full-time OF’er, of course, but he can play out there still.
I don’t disagree that Griffey’s defense may very well have been overrated even in his prime… I have always said Mike Cameron was the best CF I ever saw…
But anyone saying that Griffey is, at best, about as good as Raul Ibanez defensively is just wrong.
I don’t even know that Dave said that, and I really don’t give a crap.
Kenji is to be extended accroding to Rosenthal. …why?
I don’t think it’s a horrible idea, unless it’s for more than two years.
But this is the Mariners at their best/worst.
This is a good thing for the 2008 club, however. With Johjima extended, the Mariners can worry less about Clement’s defensive development and just get him up here to hit.
Clement at DH is the single greatest offensive upgrade the club can make. And now there is no reason NOT to do it. If Johjima is to be here for 2-3 more years, no need to push so hard to develop Clement at C.
So when do we hear that Clement, Triunfel, and Aumont have been traded for Jr., June or July?
…But anyone saying that Griffey is, at best, about as good as Raul Ibanez defensively is just wrong. I don’t even know that Dave said that, and I really don’t give a crap.
No, Dave hasn’t compared Griffey directly to Ibanez at all, at least as far as I’m aware. I made the relationship, myself — in that they see Griffey as a “DH” in the outfield, just like they see Raul as a “DH” in the outfield. That’s where the comparison remains — it’s not a direct one comparing Raul to Griffey, but rather the fact that they see both Raul and Griffey as completely inadequate defensively.
I happen to disagree with that. Raul’s definitely a DH in the outfield. Griffey would be best suited by spending time as the DH, but he’s not a DH playing in the outfield. There is a difference, subtle, sure, but Raul came through the system as a catcher and wasn’t ever really known for his defense (but, to his credit, his arm is pretty solid), whereas Griffey spent the bulk of his time as a pro in CF, and even as an injured, aging player, would be more likely to be better in the outfield.
But to be fair to Dave/Jeff/DMZ/whoever, they never made that direct comparison — I did. The overall sentiment with those folks, however, is that both Raul and Griffey should be considered as DHs now.
Joh extended for three years, according to the Times
I cannot believe that. That is ridiculous.
Now what for Clement?
This smells like can’t sign Frank Thomas, so extend Joh and make Clement the DH. If Clement is in Tacoma for 10 more games I’ll be surprised. If he still is, the M’s have officially lost their f’n mind.
Clement’s value was supposed to be at catcher. Make him DH and now his value won’t be as high, although it won’t be bad by no means.
UGGGHHHHHHHHH
I am officially a D’Backs fan. This move makes the Clement selection look even worse in hindsight. You don’t draft a DH # 3 overall when their is superior talent available. The pick was justified when you have Clement’s numbers has a cather but when you move him to 1B or DH the value is significantly decreased and he is merely above average. This is organization has no clue, you would think Johs early struggles would of kept us from re-signing him, but I forgot, it’s the M’s. We have got to be the biggest joke of an organization. Can we keep the Sonics and let Clay take the M’s all they are good for is frustration and disappointment.
Jason what kind of trade value does Burke have? From your story in the PI it seems like the M’s believe that Clement can catch. I think the best that we can hope for this year is Burke getting traded, and Clement and Joh platoning at C and DH.
Most managers don’t want their backup catcher being the regular DH, though. That makes it tough.
Your jumping ship, talkbaseball?
What a loser move.
Take the easy way to the baseball you want, eh? Pick the team with the best record and roll.
I see how ya are.
You were never a real fan, then. Real fans don’t give up.
And yes, that’s a challenge.
This team baffles and angers a lot of people, me include. But they could trade Felix Hernandez and Adrian Beltre for Jason Larue and Stinky McStinkton, and somehow in the end, I’d still be a fan.
Don’t bail, man.
I’m here until the end, unless Portland gets a baseball team. LOL.
I went to ASU and live in Phoenix and have for 10 years so it is not like I am choosing the team because they are rolling along. Once Bavasi is gone I will be back it is just too frustrating with him at the helm. I am too emotional of a fan and when the M’s lose it ruins my day and I am just tired of it.