For all their efforts to shore up the starting rotation, the Seattle Mariners offense needs help, too. That might mean that they have to get improved production from those already residing in Mariners Blue.
It’s all in the hips.
Mindless movie entertainment anyone?
Adage aside, a look at the swing of Mariner’s second baseman Jose Lopez will reveal much about the guy on whom we’re pinning more than a few hopes. I’ll refer you to mlb.com, where video archives will provide you with many of Lopez’s highlights.
You’ll see primarily home runs, crucial base-hits, and the occasional flash of leather. But let’s just focus on hitting.
I call on you, the fan, to follow along from highlight to highlight and join me in playing “baseball scout.” Anything you already know about hitting will be useful. A small background in rotational physics is certainly nice too. Either way, I’ll try to fill in the details as I go.
[The games in question are as follows, in case you’d like to watch as we analyze]
May 5th, 2007 @ NYY, May 15th, 2007 vs. LAA, May 24th, 2007 @ TB, May 25th, 2007 @ KC, June 3rd, 2007 vs. Tex, June 11th, 2007 @ Cle
Using a readily available source in helping me analyze Lopez’s swing, we went through each of these clips and more, then watched those of several stars, such as Albert Pujols and Miguel Cabrera, for points of comparison. Also, because we’re nerds.
Immediately, St. John’s University’s starting center fielder Michael Aicardi noticed some flaws. The Red Storm hitting coach, John Quintell, has been passing Aicardi and the rest of the Red Storm the wisdom he received from Ted Williams himself, lending credibility to his knowledge of the basics of a baseball swing.
“He leads with his top hand, rather than letting his hips lead the bat through the zone,” Aircardi pointed out. “The first two swings were excellent. The next four were obviously wrong. It’s a tendency a lot of aggressive hitters have; trying to use their hands to pull the bat forward and get to the ball faster.”
According to Aicardi, who hit .349 as a reserve last season, a truly sound swing occurs when the hips lead the hands to the point of contact by the simple virtue of a batter’s turning body. Many of us associate the hands and arms as the driving force of bat speed, so much so as to credit a hitter “getting his arms extended” as something positive (I’m looking at you Tim McCarver).
More in-depth evaluations, however, turn up evidence to the contrary.
“What a lot of hitting guys are teaching now is that if you are looking to extend your arms all the time, more often that not you’ll reduce your torque, eliminate bat speed, make contact on pitches away from your body and out of the zone and ultimately produce a lot more weak grounders and infield pops,” said an American League scout.
“Getting full extension can be good, still, but it absolutely should not be the objective. There are far more advanced philosophies these days.”
“Extension circumvents much of the power in a batter’s swing,” Aicardi continued. For one, a batter’s arms are much less stable when extended away from his body.”
This can easily be shown by trying to push a friend’s extended arms down, versus having them bent close to his or her body.
But on top of that, extension increases a batter’s rotational inertia, also known as the resistance against acceleration. While one can learn that from a college physics course and quickly looking up the simple formula for rotational inertia, anyone can immediately see why.
Rotational inertia increases proportionally with the increase in an object’s rotational radius. A report by Steve Phillips of ESPN (aired during Baseball Tonight this past season) touches on the very same concept in busting the “extension myth.”
- Further research revealed more into why the hands must always “stay back,” provided by Batspeed.com
The mechanics of a baseball swing can be described by the “double pendulum” model of physics. Most of us know about pendulums, but a double pendulum carries its own characteristics of motion. Batspeed.com describes the hands as one pendulum while the bat head takes on the role of a second. According to the physics of angular motion, the second pendulum will accelerate when the first pendulum achieves a circular path of motion.
Fans at home can also demonstrate this by attaching a blunt object to string and then attempting to twirl it. Use your hands in a circular path first, then compare it to a linear path - preferably while inside your house and within a close proximity of expensive or valuable objects.
For the bat head to gain speed the hands must stay within a circular path, from the initial opening of the hips to the follow-through immediately after contact. Should the hands fall out of the circular path at any time, before and up to the point of contact, the bat head immediately loses speed and the force of contact decreases considerably.
It’s much easier to see now how the natural turn of a hitter’s body (and not the arms or wrists) controls the speed of the bat by providing the circular path for the hands to follow. It also becomes increasingly easy to see how Lopez’s hands begin to lead out in front more and more as the season wears on. Think about it, the hands start in the back, and then lead into the front. Is that circular, or is that linear?
“I’m not really familiar with Lopez,” said Aicardi, “but I do know aggressive hitters have a hard time keeping a consistent swing. Better fastballs give them trouble because their hands pull forward to meet the ball quicker, but that not only takes power away, it commits the bat into the zone before the hitter even knows where the point of contact will be. Slower pitches in the zone feed right into a nice, smooth swing correctly led by the hips.”
The main point to gather from that last statement is that pitches outside the zone do no such thing.
Aggressive hitters like Lopez tend to chase pitches, if only because they simply exhibit less discrimination between the good offerings and the not-so good. A lot of slugger types will chase and miss completely (Richie Sexson, for example) and it’s actually where a lot of strikeouts are taken. But ultimately, even if contact can be made outside the zone, the extension that would have to occur to do so takes away much of the leverage produced by a hitter’s body.
So says Aicardi…
“You see all the time in televised games how analysts draw the straight line through a batter’s head and body during a side view of someone’s swing. That’s called the power position, and almost always the hands start at the back hip. If the hands stay back, the point of contact will be at the peak of the swing, right through the center of the zone.”
In other words, the longer the hands stay within the body’s circular path, the more bat speed that will be generated.
“But if your hands come forward, like he has the tendency to do, your arms extend and your hands become separated from the body. All that torque generated from your core becomes less of a factor because you’re relying more on your wrists and arms to provide the power, when in reality they aren’t all that powerful on their own.”
It’s obvious to see how chasing pitches outside the strike zone limits your ability to make good contact. Throw in the fact that in those cases when the batter chases, the power position simultaneously breaks down and you’re basically combining a poor contact rate with a weak swing.
“A lot of strikeouts if you’re a free-swinging slugger.”
And if you’re a contact hitter who rarely strikes out?
“A lot of turnover ground balls, lazy flies.”
And Lopez’s hitting chart from mlb.com supports that, particularly at Safeco Field.
But apparently, the issue goes even further than that.
“What you’ll see in the side view of good swings is called the hitter’s diamond. The top-hand arm, also the lagging arm, forms the bottom of the diamond while the lead arm forms the top half. The most important part is the top hand arm, and you’ll notice almost every time that it’s bent, not extended.”
Aicardi goes on to describe that the bent arm acts as a strong, “compressed” spring, designed to help the batter power through the pitch at the point of contact.
“From contact to follow-through, that arm literally extends only 2-3 inches and really occurs in an instant upon contact.”
Elite hitters show a perfect hitter’s diamond on almost every swing, regardless of the quadrant in which the ball is thrown.
“You look at hitters like Alex Rodriguez and Pujols and Barry Bonds, and you notice no matter where the pitch is, as long as it’s in the zone or close enough to it, the swing is always the same, the diamond is always in tact. The amount of contact may vary, but the strength of the swing does not.”
What a hitter is essentially doing is completely removing a variable from the equation.
“That’s really your difference between power guys who hit .300 and those who hit .270.”
And perhaps it’s also the difference between a .250 hitting, medium powered middle infielder and a .270 hitting above-average powered Jose Lopez.
Notice he made the comment about power bats. Then think about players like Ichiro, who have a very unorthodox swing and little power in which to speak, but still manage to out produce players like Lopez day-in and day-out.
Their remedy? Speed, of course. The problem with Lopez is that his below-average wheels do not translate into a whole lot of infield hits or even extra bases. Also keep in mind that while Ichiro’s swing gives some scouts nightmares, he rarely employs it to pitches that aren’t close, allowing his superior bat control to essentially place the ball where he wants. Lopez doesn’t carry those tools, or any remotely close to it.
“There are some talents that are so unique that you throw the book out and leave them alone,” said one former big-league first baseman who is now an advanced scout for an AL West rival. “Ichiro is one of those, surely, and so was Rod Carew.”
“I can’t imagine anyone has a combination of tools like Ichiro does, let alone Lopez,” Aicardi said.
Lopez’s swing has instead been developed for power, so much so that Mariners officials are banking on him becoming an annual 20 HR hitter, and soon.
The immediate prognosis?
“Judging by these clips,” Aicardi opined, “his top hand doesn’t cheat so much that it’ll completely remove his function as a hitter, so long as he’s staying on pitches in the zone.”
Even with poor swings, any pitch can be driven 350 feet if it’s placed correctly. A more selective approach may lead to a few more strikeouts, but would probably yield better results on batted balls.
But therein lies the problem. If his swing warrants an approach that he doesn’t have, you end up with seasons like 2007. and if that weren’t bad enough, it turns out most pitchers are pretty smart these days. They had no problem wringing Jose Lopez for all the easy outs they could muster, and that will certainly continue if the Venezuelan native doesn’t make the proper adjustments.
Some would argue that many contact hitters consistently perform at a high level. In fact, a new theory suggests that with a little luck, Lopez could quite easily hit .300 in a season with a few more “dying quails” or well placed pop-ups, being that he strives to make contact so often.
Some of you fellow statheads will point to the consistency of the league-wide BABIP (That’s batting average of balls in play, if you’re wondering), which generally hovers around .290.
But that statistic really only applies to pitchers, those who see the full spectrum of quality in major league batsmen, versus one batter who has a generally poor approach at the plate, regardless of who he’s facing.
So what do the Mariners do?
The fact is they haven’t been able to develop strong offensive talent from within since the days of Alex Rodriguez.
To the contrary, several players blossomed only upon leaving Seattle, Asdrubal Cabrera, Scott Podsednik, even Raul Ibanez. There’s a reason for all of that. And no, not just because of poor scoutingand player development
In the same way Lopez needs a change in approach, the Mariners need a change in philosophy. Even a slew of poor drafts can’t excuse a system vacuously hording talent for over a decade. The truth stands that as you look through the dozens of prospects that have passed through Seattle since the new millennium, one statistic always seems to stand out by being way too low.
And that’s walks.
Plate discipline isn’t a perfect science, but “walks drawn” is a decent indicator of patience, and more importantly, pitch recognition. Other good indicators can be found on a player’s stats page, under “situational stats” for 2007. There, you can find a comparison of statistics by count.
When there’s no count, Lopez is hitting .362 and slugging .594. Thinking about how often pitchers want that 0-1 count, it’s pretty obvious Lopez is getting plenty to hit on the first pitch. That, first of all, really only shows me how well he can handle pitches in the zone.
When he’s worked the count to 2-0, Lopez hit .294 and put up a .510 slugging percentage and an OPS of .947. At 2-1, despite hitting .238, he managed to slug .571. Again, these are high-leverage situations and more likely to induce pitching within the hitting zone. In turn, Lopez hits well in these situations.
At 3-0, almost no one swings - only 7.5% league wide - and neither did Lopez. Perhaps more telling, however, was that he only managed this count six times - all season.
At 3-1, he hit just .136, but still managed an OBP of .406 by virtue of 10 walks – half of his season total of 20. It seems pitchers wouldn’t mind walking him (he hits 7th or 8th, after all), but Lopez helps them out by not laying off pitches when he should. A called second strike in this case might benefit him, as:
With a full count, Lopez hit .313 with an OBP of .405.
What are some other high-leverage situations?
With the bases loaded, Lopez had six hits in nine at-bats.
If it were up to the Mariners, he’d improve both. The swing would be sound, consistent, mechanically correct, and selective to pitches over the plate. And, every once in a while, he’d let the opposition know that the phrase “ball four” isn’t his secret self-destruct code.
What would it take to do this?
Practice. Lots of it, every day.
And I’m talking about extra practice - the kind that keeps you above the rest of the league, not with it. Cincinnati’s Joey Votto takes dozens of extra reps everyday to keep his swing in check, and now he’s a bonafide future star.
Shocking, huh?
A drill one might suggest is the “Edgar Martinez special,” which is to have numbers written on tennis balls or baseballs during batting practice, and try to call out each number as you see them, just before you drive them into dust. Not only does your swing become more consistent, you begin to discern a pitch’s rotation ahead of time. That’s what leads to recognition, and eventually discipline.
Worked for Edgar.
“His work ethic has come into question a lot when I’ve asked about him,” said the rival scout. “His conditioning, his willingness to see new things through, give ideas a chance. Jeff (Pentland) is a good teacher and a good communicator and if he (Lopez) isn’t any better by now, it’s the player. And I don’t believe he’s simply incapable.
“Slow bat, yes. But there’s a reason for that, too.”
Without some sort of drill or Edgar-cise, it’s difficult to visualize any significant improvement over Lopez’s current career baseline of .265/.300/.375. High leverage counts aren’t available very often in the majors, unless the hitter creates them for himself. Lopez, at this point in time, will be hard pressed to earn them.
And by then we may be seeing Yung Chi Chen, Miguel Cairo or even Tug Hulett at the keystone’s right side.
And considering the job status of the front office, probably sooner rather than later.
Jonathan Aircardi is a new addition to the Prospect Insider staff and will be offering prospect and player analysis as well as thoughts and ideas on the Seattle Mariners. You can reach Jonathan via email at Aircardi@ProspectInsider.com
Send Kudos to Prospect Insider for this Report!
It’s been pretty obvious for a number of years now that the M’s don’t emphasize the walk. What I have yet to see, here or anywhere else, is any sort of rational explanation of what they DO emphasize in either hitting or pitching. I mean, these people aren’t idiots, and they are, presumably, more or less well-intentioned. They want to succeed. So, why not teach the walk? What IS the organizational philosophy, especially in the minor leagues?
You can’t teach the walk. Walking isn’t a skill.
Strike zone judgment, plate discipline and patience are skills.
The M’s haven’t drafted/signed a lot of bats who displayed advanced abilities in these areas as prep age players, and they haven’t drafted many college bats in the upper rounds at all until Mangini this past year.
But Jones has the ability to do okay in the OBP department, and Wlad is a year further along than that.
Clement will draw walks.
One thing you will see is that few international talents, particularly of the latin countries, have the patience to lay off pitches with the propensity to work counts and let strikes go by if necessary.
The old adage goes… “They don’t walk their way off the island.”
It’s not about an organizational TEACHING philosophy. Pentland is big on attacking strikes but making the pitcher give you something you can drive. if he doesn’t, let him walk you.
The issue is the type of bat they draft, sign an acquire.
Remind me in April and I’ll get with Rainiers hitting coach Alonzo Powell and get his take on
this topic.
In fact, remind me in March.
The Mariners could use more walks. I read somewhere that Oakland doesn’t allow their prospects to advance unless their walks ratio is above 10%. When Depodesta was GM of the Dodgers, Jim Tracy made the hitters practice a drill of taking the first pitch in spring training.
When Lopez is ahead in the count 1-0, he should be more picky. Not all strikes are created equal. He should be looking to drive a ball close to the heart of the plate. If not he should lay off the ball. But he just swings at a ball that is close to the strike zone.
I browsed through the splits and notice that Lopez as a basestealer was a puzzling 2 of 5 when the count was 3-2. How does this happen?
Some would argue that many contact hitters consistently perform at a high level. In fact, a new theory suggests that with a little luck, Lopez could quite easily hit .300 in a season with a few more “dying quails” or well placed pop-ups, being that he strives to make contact so often.
Some of you fellow statheads will point to the consistency of the league-wide BABIP (That’s batting average of balls in play, if you’re wondering), which generally hovers around .290.
But that statistic really only applies to pitchers, those who see the full spectrum of quality in major league batsmen, versus one batter who has a generally poor approach at the plate, regardless of who he’s facing.
Just wanted to point out that you are spot on here and I wanted to tack on that the best way of discerning a hitter’s batting average ability is to probably to look at his line drive and strikeout rates.
So assuming we don’t trade for Roberts - how close is Chen to replacing Lopez if he tanks again this year?
I think he could be real close. Put up a nice line a Tacoma before getting injured, and is doing it again in Venezuela. Chen’s biggest deficiency is a lack of power, but if can continue his high contact, high walk rates, while stealing bags like he’s shown in the minors, he could the m’s their first legit two hole hitter in years. Which personally I find much more valuable than trying to find a 8 hole hitter with 20hr ‘potential.’
Lopez was hitting .295 before his brother died…
Lopez may very well have a fine season. I am going to wait and see.
May 5th - Pretty nice swing
May 15th - Very Different Swing, Beltre like
May 24th - No Hips or Late Hips
May 25th - No Hips
June 3rd - Awful first swing, Nice 2nd swing. Hands are a little ahead, Horrible 3rd swing, Nice last Swing
June 11th - No Hips
Lopez’s brother didn’t pass away in 2006, though, and he was awful after June 8.
Really super terrible.
So his brother’s death, while tragic, doesn’t even begin to explain his second-half plunges.
I would guess it is lack of focus, practice and extra reps and the season drags onward. Before the season, you can get all the reps and work you need to craft a good swing. However, once the season hits full stride, I wonder how often you see Lopez getting extra reps and pushing himself to maintain a good fundamental swing (or defensive technique for that matter). If you get sloppy, you need to take the time to correct the flaws or it only gets worse.
Edited for CAPS correction
There is ample opportunity for any hitter to get extra work. The knock on Lopez is that he’s a little bit lazy and pig headed at the same time.
As nearly as I can tell, the Mariners emphasize putting the ball in play, and avoid striking out. When a player at a given level demonstrates that he can consistently put the bat on the ball with decent contact, he becomes a prime candidate for a promotion.
I can’t find the link right now, but I recall a comment from a senior person in the Mariners player development system regarding player promotions. The statement was that they believed plate discipline was the last skill to develop for a hitter and was a skill that could be developed at the MLB level.
The reality is that a player can get help up at a given level in the system (or even sent down) if the player fails to make acceptable contact - which can include learning to hit the ball to all fields. But a player will not get held back for failing to show sufficient plate discipline.
***
This is still the organization that dumped Mike Cameron because he struck out too much for their taste, even though Cameron consistently posted an OBP 80 to 100 points higher than his BA.
Well put, Steve. Well put.
No Lopez’s brother didn’t die in 2006 but that was his first full year in the majors. I am not making excuses for the kid, because his second half troubles are unacceptable. But last year he did have a reason to struggle.
Next year is his bust year. If he doesn’t hit like he is supposed to, he is a lost cause for the Mariners, and I am sure he will go to another organization, and become a super star like so many former Mariner before him.
Jason, any explanation on why our busted guys become superstars else where?
The only “busted” young player that became a star elsewhere in recent times is Guillen.
Guillen was good here, he just couldn’t stay healthy.
He was able to do that in Detroit. Seattle didn’t want to wait.
Re: Lopez
And 2007 was only his second full year. That’s just a BS excuse. The reason he sucked after mid June in 2007 is very, very likely the same exact reason he was terrible after June 2 in 2006.
He’s not a disciplined ballplayer at this stage. His swing is slow and somewhat long, even though his entire approach is designed behind his swing being quick.
He has to jump out ahead to hit good fastballs, which is why you often see Jose pull long fly balls into foul territory.
He’s unable to stay back, hit the ball where it’s pitched and his plate discipline is so bad that he’ll both swing at pitches out of the zone in any count, including hitter’s counts, but he’ll try and pull everything.
There’s no lack of teaching in the M’s organization that every other club is doing. If Seattle would have been more patient with Guillen, he would have had the chance to get healthier and perform with the M’s, too.
That’s the mistake - impatience. Lopez should not be given more than 2008 to figure out, but not because it’s “been three years, make a chance,” but because the team’s evaluators don’t believe he’s capable of being a regular offensive contributor immediately.
I suspect Lopez will be better in ‘08, mostly due to the fact that the club has been keeping a more watchful eye on the way he handles his offseason.
His second-half struggles have been made a major focal point, and his job is being threatened in more than ways one. Getting his attention was step one. Getting him to both listen to Jeff Pentland and be open to making adjustments might be the most critical step.
Re: Lamda
I don’t think Chen is a long-term answer. I think he could be a quality reserve, however, and a default replacement should Lopez struggle so badly for extended periods.
re: stickball
Oakland also does not allow their hitters to swing 3-0 in any general game situation.
Players like Chen make signings like Miguel Cairo especially frustrating. I believe Chen is a better player than Cairo right now. That said, I don’t think Chen would make a very good starting option.
of course chen is a better option then cairo but would you rather chen sit the bench all year or play everyday and develop in the minors.
Don’t forget, we also have Mike Morse, who is out of options.
I would never sign Miguel Cairo in a million years and I certainly wouldn’t pay him a million dollars to be a waste of space on my bench.
Mike Morse (even though he would be a waste of space makes the league minimum). Hell, I could do it for the league minimum.
the mariners have never seemed to like morse so i would expect them to either trade him or put him through waivers.
(to make this as blunt as possible)
Well the M’s don’t like Morse because he sucks, but then they go out and sign Cairo who also sucks but makes more money. I just don’t get it.
Dude. Cairo is a veteran. You know how that goes.
this is from cairo’s wikipedia pg. for the year 2004
“Cairo’s led the league in percentage of productive outs that year for players with a minimum of 40 at bats. Cairo recorded 17 productive outs in 32 productive out situations, for a PO% of 0.531. Given the potent nature of the Yankee lineup, the importance of these stats can not be overstated.
In fact, Miguel Cairo has the highest winning percentage of team wins when he plays in a game of any player in the majors this year (for players with over 100 games played).”
Is their any better reason to sign him then this.
It’s nice to be talking about something other than Bedard for a change.
I think motivation is the key for Lopez. He needs a fire lit under him, so to speak. Having Chen, Cairo, and possibly even Hulett knocking on the door could do the trick. Here’s to hoping it does.
I’m always hopeful that Lopez will continue hitting the way he starts, but things have changed a couple months in to each season so far. I agree with sentiments that he should be given most of this year to prove he can keep it together more. I don’t like the idea of any other options the team has right now for starting.
Defensively Cairo is a better option than any other bench player on the team at 1B, 2B and SS, he can also play 3B fairly well. St. L. might have played him in LF, but I wouldn’t…Bloomquist and Morse are not good defensive options at positions up the middle. Chen missed a lot of time last year and probably needs to get regular time somewhere to get back in the swing. Chen still looks like a good replacement for Bloomquist next year (if he’s not re-signed) and Cairo was only signed for 1 year. I like Cairo better as a stopgap starter than anyone other than Lopez, but unless Lopez gets injured I like him better than Cairo. They’ve had some recent ‘injuries’ to players who need re-instruction, so maybe that’s the backup plan if Lopez doesn’t put together consistent approaches from March through September.
22-
How can you say Morse sucks? He has done nothing but HIT HIT HIT since he has ben in the Majors.
Morse deservs to have a spot of the team.
Morse just has no position.
Couldn’t he be used as a utility man off the bench? He could be a useful bat off the bench.
Jason,
Morse to me doesnt seem to be that worse down the corners than Cairo is def wise, but would prob have a much better bat, not necessarily saying much though. Whats your opinion? Is this another example of the M’s wating money on a veteran, when they have a perfectly capable young player waiting in the wings? OR does Cairo’s abilitly to play up the middle really make him that much more valuable?
Also, is it unrealistic to think that Chen could match his D and his O this year?
inching up to the 21 day mark for pitchers and catchers..for those without a calendar handy,that’s 3 weeks. (lol)
been expecting something on a lefty stick for the outfield and have heard nothing.
is it possible balentien could end up in the 4th outfielder role? as of right now it’s either that or willie ballgame. or did i miss something?
Don’t say that - if Willie is our 4th OF I will likely die choking on my own vomit.
Could they possibly be thinking that Jeremy Reed will fill that role for the big club in ‘08?
The team doesn’t make their plans public, nor should they.
I haven’t heard much more on the Luis Gonzalez, Brad Wilkerson front, either, so I don’t know what they are going to do there, if anything.
But the reason they got Cairo wasn’t just to “push” Lopez, which is laughable (have you seen Cairo’s offensive and defensive numbers? Lopez should be belly laughing at that idea. “Cairo is going to push me? His good streaks are my bad streaks!), but to make Willie available as the 4th outfielder.
Also laughable. Willie should be DFA’d immediately. Ramirez should be cut. Cairo should be cut.
This front office has no idea. It’s really amazing.
Willie DFA’d…..based on what, Jason….only his stats? Is that all baseball’s about? Maybe if you enjoy countless wasted hours playing math based games that deal out human factors.
THREE managers, and TWO GM’s have kept Willie. Yet, you in your infinite wisdom declare yourself smarter than them? If at any junction in his career did those three managers feel he didn’t provide a needed element, he would have been gone. Oh, and please, no front office crying about demands to keep him. If a manager felt he couldn’t help them win, he’d be gone.
I know it’s your opinion…..and that’s great. But the idea that Willie hurts the team is just not supported….anywhere, anyhow. He was here in good times, as well as bad.
I’ll trust the judgements of Piniella, BoMel, Hargrove, McLaren, Gillick and Bavasi….even as badly crapped on they all get here.
There MUST be more to Willie than meets your eye. Personally, I don’t think it means a rats ass to a winning or losing season….do you?
BTW….are we all forgetting that Lee Elia will be back with the M’s as a special hitting assignments guy? Isn’t it worth seeing if Lee can straighten him out first? Did wonders with a few hitters when here before.
And really, Morse a good hitter? He’s not even Vidro light?
Opps…..FOUR managers…..
And Elia helping Lopez….not Bloomquist.
Yes this is going to seem like a first for anybody on this site, but I have to agree with Edtrak on this one. Jason if it is your opinion that Willie should be cut that is one thing, but Ill admit you do sound a bit high and mighty when you state that they have no idea because they are keeping him. Thats a little strong. Besides, isnt he the best baserunner on the team?
Doesnt Willie hold any value as a pinch runner late in games and also as a solid defensive guy anywhere on the field? Plus hes a hustle player that rubs off on other players. I think all those things are just enough to keep him on our bench.
Also, I think if he werent a good clubhouse guy he just might be off the team. But i think that is kinda what Edtrak is getting at when he refers to the ‘human’ aspect of a player
Willie’s averaged more than 200 plate appearances over the past five years and has NEVER slugged more than .333.
He’s never done anything offensively as a pro to earn those at-bats. Ever.
I say Willie should be cut, only because that would remove him from the equation and McLaren couldn’t give him 100 more at-bats than he deserves.
But he’s vastly overrated defensively - he’s below average at short, second, and the two outfield spots he’s played most… he’s above average at third, but does that even mean anything with Beltre around?
Bloomquist is just being overused. And has been overused for five years.
Whether that’s a lack of the front office and field manager recognizing that he isn’t good enough to bat 200+ times a season and sign to multi-year extensions, or it’s because they lack other options, it’s an act of the front office being inept.
Winning teams don’t have players like that around for five years.
Look around baseball. Check the Boston Red Sox. The bats that OPS’d in Willie’s range either gave them the value of a regular on defense, strolled to the plate a lot less, or served another valuable purpose (Doug Mirabelli being Wakefield’s catcher) or more than one of the above.
Josh Barfield struggled so much in Cleveland with his .594 OPS that they replaced him after less than one season.
He won’t get another shot with them, because they are smarter than that.
The most important tool a player can have is his bat. Specifically the power portion. Willie Bloomquist happens to have a plus tool, but it’s the one that carries the very least value by a wide margin: Speed/Baserunning.
If you can’t get on base, how valuable is that?
Can’t steal first base. Can’t be a pinchrunner more than once a game.
If Bloomquist was a legit defensive replacement up the middle at second, short and center, he’d be quite valuable.
But he’s not.
Edtrak,
The personal attacks have to stop. Not asking. I’m telling you.
The only thing around here more inept than the M’s front office is your ability to disagree without vigor.
Take it elsewhere.
Back to Willie.
Yes, based on his inability to play baseball better than 25 others in the organization.
Clearly you have no idea what this franchise is about. Do you really think Bob Melvin, Mike Hargrove and John McLaren COULD have done anything about Bloomquist’s presence?
Really, Ed? Who are you?
Here’s a question for you Edtrak. It may seem random, but I’ll make a point of it after getting your response.
At worst, what line do you think Wladimir Balentien would put up if given 200-250 plate appearances in 2008? At worst.
Jason,
I have been waiting for a person of stature to finallt agree with me that Bloomquist is pretty much worthless and it taking up a roster spot.
I almost died laughing when we called him the best utility player is baseball…
Anywho Morse>Cairo>Bloomquist.
What does this tell you about of teams ability to evaulate talent? Its gonna be rough out there when the bench gets into the game.
And Jason…What do you make of Bavasi’s remarks during the interview. DO you really think he is standning pat on giving up one “premire prospect”? Who are our premire prospects? God this Bedard bullsh*t is getting annoying.
Post without vigor? Why? Do you? If you get to be the only one who gets to opporate without a frontal lab….have at it.
Who am I? I’m just a fan….it’s all I’ve claimed to be. As a fan, I get frustrated, but I NEVER think myself smarter than those who have actual experiece at a game I only get to watch. I’ve maned softball teams at low levels, at that ioren itself is tough. But, I’d never claim to know more than even the worst manager to manage a game at the ML level.
And, when did it become Balentien vs. Willie? I’d think Wlad would more likely fill in the outfield, allowing Willie more flexability to fill infield position.
Utility guys are generally well rounded players who are more capable of doing the little things than some of the starters, late in games.
It was NEVER a personal attack…..EVER. If nobody can question your judgment, that’s not an attack….it’s an alternate opinion.
The team CAN have both Wlad and Willie on the team, and be productive. It’s not either or.
We all have opinions….without them, we’re sheep.
I’d love to have the perfect utility guy who could do everything…..let me know when you find him, and he’s willing to do that roll forever.
I’d love to have the perfect utility guy who could do everything…..let me know when you find him, and he’s willing to do that roll forever.
First of all it’s role. Second of all, nice straw man. From post #38:
If Bloomquist was a legit defensive replacement up the middle at second, short and center, he’d be quite valuable.
How is that “doing everything”?
Good utility guys are UNIVERSAL, meaning they generally are not embarrassing bad when filling in. It doesn’t require them to be some kind of supersub who does everything exceedingly well….those guys become starters.
Jones is gone to Baltimore…
The Seattle Times has quotes from A. Jones saying he is going to Balt for a physical and there is a done deal in place for Bedard.
http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mariners/2008/01/bedardjones_deal_going_down.html
That is the link in a report done by Geoff Baker.
I have been searching the web for more and come up with what looks like crap and more crap. But in an e-mail exchange with a couple people I know. It looks lik eit is a done deal. But for the players it is still up in the air…All I can say is Marrow better not be in the deal.
I like W.Balentine to be right RF myself….