By now we all should know how the Seattle Mariners operate, including what kind of player they typically seek out on the open free agent and trade markets. It’s rarely about the best player, but rather the best player who qualifies under their preposterous “good guy,” “local boy” or “fiery leader” requirements, which obviously eliminates them from acquiring better talent than they generally do.
The local connection syndrome is plain stupid, but that has been beaten to death over the years, as has the organization’s overwhelming desire for the good guy. Yeah, sure, they took a few chances the past few seasons on Carl Everett, a failed attempt, and Jose Guillen, who was probably the team’s best bat from April through September this past season.
But there’s a reason why Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong were each ok with GM Bill Bavasi handing out $10 million in guaranteed cash to Everett and Guillen, who displayed the tendency to wear out their welcome with several previous employers.
They miss Jay Buhner.
They don’t necessarily miss the 40 home runs, the consistent all-out hustle and the strong on-base skills, oh no. They miss two things in particular; his popularity with the fans that helped line their pockets, and the ingredient that inclined their desire for Everett and Guillen - fire.
Jay Buhner was a fiery leader who spoke out when no other players would. Whether it was a pep talk or tough love or a championship caliber speech laced with inspiring profanity, Bone was that kind of player.
So as you graze over all the ideas to improve the 2008 Seattle Mariners, remember who is making these decisions and the things they believe works in the game of baseball.
Just don’t get them confused with the beliefs of anyone smart enough to know that those attributes don’t win baseball games.
Buhner’s leadership would have meant nothing to the rest of that roster if he was a .220-hitting, no-field fifth outfielder who kissed the ass of the coaching staff to get playing time and a multi-year arbitration contract.
Junior, Edgar and the boys would have shut him up long before he could ever say “Fuck the wildcard.” He wouldn’t have mattered at all if he couldn’t play the game at a high level. I don’t know where you sit on this subject - for all I know, you buy into it, too - but I would think you’d prefer, for example, that your favorite team landed, say, Ryan Howard this winter rather than Jeff Conine, right?
So when you run across quotes like this…
“Listen… we’re not just a good team. We’re a great team, and don’t you fuckin’ forget that. And let’s go play one at a time and go prove that. Because let me tell you something….”
[The player] pulled on the sides of his gray road jersey. “There’s a reason why you wear this uniform….”
He paused for a beat, letting the suspenseful silence fill the rapt room.
“Because you’re a bad motherfucker.”
…remember that the reason why the player who said these words to his team before a rather crucial game this October is an MVP candidate year-in and year-out is not because he says these words to his team before crucial games in October.
It’s because he can hit at the highest of levels, smashing good pitching, bad pitching, mediocre pitching, terrible pitching, righty pitching, lefty pitching, starters, closers, at his home park and every road park in every situation and for average, for big-time power, leading his team into October to begin with.
So here’s wishing good luck [desperately needing it] to the Seattle Mariners front office and ownership representatives as they begin to unfold their plan to put a winning baseball team on the field at the Safe in 2008.
Most, if not all of us know that David Ortiz is great because he can rake with the best of them. Hopefully, at some point, Lincoln and Armstrong, and to a lesser extent Bill Bavasi and company either purchase a clue, or are replaced with those who are proud owners of said clues and treat the fans that have so unconditionally loved and supported this team - and their bank accounts - for the last 13 seasons, with the team they deserve.
Boston Red Sox fans paid dearly for their World Series titles, but they now have two because they are the best run big-market franchise in the game, making sound decisions regularly.
Seattle’s faithful has paid a price, too, and while it certainly hasn’t been 86 years, it’s been a lifetime for many. David Ortiz is a perfect example of what all teams should be after, but for the right reasons, not because he can make goosebump-raising speeches.
The job that Colorado Rockies GM Dan O’Dowd and his entire staff has done the past three seasons is a perfect example, too. Not because they went out and traded for 25 leaders or the hitters with the best batting average or the pitchers with the most wins. But because they went about things the right way, and didn’t force the issue and make mistake after mistake after mistake, setting the club back over and over.
The Sox are a perfect example of mixing payroll with youth, experience and a balanced staff of players, coaches and managers, to go with a front office whose ownership hired them to do a job and allows them the freedom in which to do it.
Is it that hard to copycat in baseball?


 
 
Jason,
Good post. Kind of off topic but two questions: 1. When will the offseason plan come out? 2. Is there any chance at all for Junior to come back this year or does that look like something that won’t happen until 2009?
Jason-
Totally agree with you, 100%. I am so sick and tired of the suits in the front office making idiotic decisions that set the club back for years. And for the record, i am sick and tired of the “lets bring in high character guys” mantra, that the Pro Sports teams in this city prescribe to.
I do not claim to have the contacts and knowledge about the game that you do, nor do I think running a franchise is a simple task, but come freakin’ on, how hard is it for the FO to realize that bringing in superiour talent generally transaltes to wins. As you said, the Boston Red Sox are a perfect example of how to run a franchise. Theo Epstein has the balls, and the suppourt from the FO to go out and roll the dice, make trades, and bring in free agents to help the team win.
I think its time that we demanded better results. Go out and get us a damn difference maker Bill!!!!!!! Do freakn’ something to help this team, not only for next season, but for the future. Grow a pair, and help your ball club win!!!!
Jason
After watching this FO for the last 3 years, I can understand your frustration and why there is no reason to pussy foot around anymore with any comments. The only trade I liked other than the Garcia trade at the time was the one for Broussard and they managed to glue his ass to the bench and systematically destroy any value that he might have had. It’s amazing how much money they’ve flushed down the toilet in those last three years in flushing out the farm system, trades, and FA. The farm system is their bright spot though and it appears to be loaded with pitching at HD and at Wisconsin and many position players also. Tacoma is well stocked for players needed in Seattle once the injuries begin. It looks like West Tennessee isn’t going to have much to start the year but that should change some after the next draft when some players are sent to Wisconsin as well as other players being promoted from Wisconsin and HD in August. This years draft should have the farm system fully restocked. It just may be that 09′ is the targeted year to have M’s really ready to compete and the FO will also have new people to add the finishing touches to it. That could be why they didn’t go with Colburn this year and decided to go in a different direction. McLaren and his whole coaching staff may be gone next year as well as Bavasi.
Had the Colorado Rockies not had an incredible hot streak at the right time, would you still be praising them?
I don’t think they are a great example……unless it is of course because they are an example of when to be hot.
The Rockies also fell to earth, once they got overmatched by the BoSox.
If anything, the Rockies are the perfect example of why you make deals late in the season, if you have even a remote chance of seeing the playoffs.
Bottom line, they shouldn’t have been there….period. They weren’t the best team in the NL. That said, any NL team would have been overmatched. The NL has become noticably weaker.
And, Uncle Al…..you’re dreaming if you think anything at the top is going to change after this season. If they felt unsure, they’d have made the changes this year. It’s purly trying to put your own will upon the Mariners…..and that isn’t going to happen.
BTW, jesse……..it’s a whole lot easier for Epstein to have balls, when his team is backed by the enormous revenues from the New England Sports Network. They are only rivaled by the YES Network in New York, in regard to revenues.
I’m not saying that Seattle is poor, but there is a HUGE difference in revenue for both the Yankees and Red Sox.
It’s a whole lot easier to take risks, when you have the bankroll to back you up if you’re wrong.
I don’t mind the discussion, but some of you live in fantasy land, where teams and owners spend every last penny to assure the fans get their desire for a WS championship met.
You think the other teams in the league wouldn’t like to win too?
I never compared the M’s payroll to the Red Sox, i merely stated that epstein is willing to roll the dice. Bavasi for the most part has not. And for the record, how many of Epsteins moves have backfired? Not to many…I am simply calling for Bavasi to go out on a limb, and make some moves to upgrade the team, rather than continually shuttling in vets the like of jeff weaver, ho ram, reitsma, reese, rhodes etc.
And honestly when your payroll is around the 110 million mark, you should be in the playoffs, or at least closer to the playoffs. That is all i am trying to say. I believe the way the FO chooses to spend money is unacceptable. And i am getting tired of it. Next time you decide to lecture me, actually lecture me on a point i was making, not something that you assume i meant.
Plenty of Epstein’s moves have backfired, you just don’t hear about them because the team is winning (in part due to a huge payroll).
Dice-K was not anywhere close to worth the investment. Lugo struggled all year. JD Drew had a horrible year (until his GS in the playoffs), Gagne imploded after he traded for him, Coco Crisp… The list goes on.
The Colorado Rockies are a good example, Edtrak. Sucky teams don’t just get up and start winning like that, especially in a pennant race when it counts. They have one heck of a farm system and it paid off. I dream of the day the M’s get that kind of a farm system.
Sooo, ummmm… back to our regularly scheduled baseball programming…
Here is a story from the ever-credible NY Post with a comment about Bowa joining Torre in L.A. This must be the ‘off the field’ stuff that he was working out?
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10312007/sports/yankees/joe_goes_hollywood.htm
#7 what i meant to say was how many of Epsteins moves have been crippling to the organization, or have set the Bo Sox back? Last time i checked he brought in David Ortiz, Josh Beckett, and Mike Lowell, and they have won 2 World Series championships in 4 yrs. How many organization changing moves (like the Beckett/Lowell deal) has Bavasi made. For the most part, the trades that Bavasi has made, have been conservative, and largely blown up in his face.
How many of Epstein’s moves have cost them playoff berths? Yes the Gagne deal was nearly disasterious. But compare Epsteins missteps to Bavasi’s.
All i have been rambling on about is i want Bavasi to make a move that actually makes a differnce for this ball club. Bring is some damn pitching… Easier said than done however, but this whole idea of patching gapping wholes with bandaids is getting really tiring.
Edtrak,
Praising them? Yeah. Just like Arizona deserves to be praised, just like the past 16 months of the D Rays deserve to be praised, just like the Twins still deserve to be praised.
I didn’t speak of the Rockies just because they won. I used them because they started off making the errors (Hampton, Neagle, etc) and wised up and now look what they have.
They have young, inexpensive talent that will give them a chance to compete for a division title every year.
They built from within and made sound choices.
As did those other teams, and the Brewers, and to a lesser extent of late, the Braves.
Colorado isn’t a perfect “model” for the Mariners because they spend so fewer dollars.
But they are further proof, as are Cleveland, Oakland, Minnesota and others, that you don’t need to spend 110 million to win - if you do it right.
More on the Rockies…
I was speaking highly of them as early as two years ago when their farm system began to shape up and they hadn’t extended themselves on any ridiculous contracts.
All their run did was push them forward a year or so sooner than expected.
The Mariners spend 110 million to cover mistakes made elsewhere that would have otherwise allowed them to win 85-90 games without spending the money.
Jason,
We tend to blame Bavasi for alot of stuff on this site. How much blame does he deserve? Or is it Lincoln and Armstrong that deserve most of the blame?
It’s always been of my opinion that the GM has too many restrictions laid on him by those above him to lay the blame solely at his feet.
This organization is getting further away from being sustainably good, the longer Lincoln and Armstrong are in charge.
Screw Lincoln & Armstrong — I miss Buhner. Heh, if Bowa follows Torre to LA, they could call Buhner to be third base coach. It might be sorta hard to keep him from doing this as the M’s runners round third, though…
Uncle Al, I suggest you have it all wrong. I’m not a know-it-all asshole at all. Unlike some here, I do exactly the opposite, and claim to NOT know-it-all. Several speak out of school about what they think they know. Most of it is simply trying to inject there own point of view into a discussion, then trying to sell it as some sort of fact.
The guys who you should be scared of, Al….are guys like you, who aren’t willing to accept an alternate point of view.
You don’t like me……so be it. I won’t lose sleep. But, to dislike me because I try to look at all sides of an equation, says more about your intolerance, than mine.
Jason and I agree on a lot, and probably disgree just as much. But, unlike you, he goes and gets the facts. Sometimes, I get my nose rubbed in it. That’s how debates work. But, I don’t hate him, in fact, I have a lot of respect for him. But, that doesn’t mean that you or I, should take everything he says as absolute.
I seldom call anyone names or attempt to “devalue” them as individuals. Yet, many here have felt free to do so with me. I’m sarcastic…..so sue me. But, unlike you, Al, I’d NEVER go on about how you don’t deserve to be here.
See the difference?
Wonder why so many people attack you? It’s not because you bring “facts.”
jesse, lets get some facts straight.
First, Ortiz was a risk that paid off, it wasn’t like the Sox went and got him in his prime. In fact, he’d been cut by the Twins who thought his better days were behind him. Brilliant move by Epstein? Naw, lucky move. Teams make those same moves every year, and many don’t work out. Personally, I like Ortiz, and would have brought him in too. But, it wasn’t a risk at all for the Sox.
Beckett and Lowell were solid moves. But, the BoSox gave up a lot to get them. And, Boston basically took Lowell to even the money out. Luckily for them, he rebounded this season.
So, if we’re gonna praise Epstein for his “risk taking”, then perhaps we need to put it in prospective.
I do give them credit for the fine young players that have come up through there minor league system. But, I’m not sure that has much to do with Epstein.
And, jp17, you’ve been the pillar for fact based analysis?
I don’t see anybody constantly talking about how annoying I am.
See the difference?
People dislike you for your style of demeaning posts.
You do have a history of that here. Are you denying this?
If the team tanks next year, there is a very real possiblity that Bavasi and McLaren are gone.
This is a forum for people to express ideas. People like you discourage others, like me, from posting because they don’t want to even read your crap, though it isn’t exclusive to this place.
Treat people with some ounce of respect, someday, it may come back to you.
Uncle Al wrote:
It just may be that 09? is the targeted year to have M’s really ready to compete and the FO will also have new people to add the finishing touches to it. That could be why they didn’t go with Colburn this year and decided to go in a different direction. McLaren and his whole coaching staff may be gone next year as well as Bavasi.
============================================
I’m wrong for questioning a logic that says:
1. The M’s WILL have a new front office.
2. That the M’s were afraid to hire Colborn, because they planned for failure?
3. That the M’s are expecting failure.
I find that completely flawed. No team accepts being a failure as a way to operate their business, not even the worst teams. And yet, the M’s didn’t get Colborn, because they PLAN on the failure of McLaren? Not a chance. I don’t love their choice of McLaren. But, they do…..right or wrong. And, there is NO WAY they are basing their moves on the belief that he’s not the guy they see as leading this team.
So, that is simply INJECTING your point of view into a situation in an attempt to rationalize it. They didn’t hire Colborn because he didn’t FIT….in one way or the other. NOT because they were worried he’d be part of a losing staff under McLaren.
Again, I don’t like McLaren’s return. But, that’s the choice they made, and they DIDN’T make it with the thought of failure in mind.
Right or wrong, John’s their choice.
And somebody is actualy supposed to agree with your stupidity and respond. Do the words “may be” or “could” even register in that little pea brain of yours. Your sarcasm is only part of the reason most people consider you to be somewhere between an imbecile and a moron.
edtrak, why do you always make waves?
Isn’t JP17 the same guy that was banned multiple times on the PI for doing the same things he accuses Edtrak of doing?
Pot meet kettle.
Snell
Why say anything at all about JP17 unless you know for sure what you are talking about? Flame wars on the PI blog are a way of life and it isn’t hard to get banned defending yourself against most of the idiots posting there anyway. There are many edtraks on the PI site to do nothing but waste your time on if you have nothing better to do.
Have I called anyone a moron or imbecile?
The description fits you, not other people.
Edtrak
jp17 did a really nice thing for in #19 as he spent some of his time to actually try to help you. Why not read it over and over again until it finally sinks in to your head. I don’t wish to waste my time on you answering your stupid comments so my comments are much shorter and blunt.
That really hurts to hear that about David Arias. I remember when they lost him in the first place that was when I was just getting into the minor league stats and I thought “He had really good stats going and I’m not sure making him the player to be named later was a good idea.” Obviously that’s somewhat ironic since his name was never Arias and he was later “re-named” Ortiz again. A part of what you’re saying would seem to be that the M’s had Buhners replacement and let him go for nothing?
Different FO anyway, but the Varitek/Lowe never seemed as bad to me as that gaffe…
David Arias wasn’t much of a prospect when he was traded. He evolved into something greater. But, it wasn’t like everyone projected him to be a star. The Twins didn’t even expect what they got.
Glass houses, Al.
Edtrak-
I don’t wish to argue with you, because it is pointless. Every rebutal you have made to me makes no sense in the context of my previous points. I never said that Ortiz was a premier player when Epstein brought him in. My point was that Epstein rolled the dice and brought in a player that most people thought was dead. Part of being a good gm is taking calculated risks, and hoping they payoff. That risk payed off pretty well for Epstein didn’t it? A good gm is able to make that lucky move every once in a while, is he not? Carlos Pena in Tampa is another example of pulling a gold nugget out of a pile of scrap.
Name the last move that Bavasi made that netted the M’s a player such as Ortiz/Pena. Furthermore, Lowell is another example of Epstein taking a shot on a player and having it pay off big time. And though Lowell had some what more of a track record for success than Ortiz did, the point is the same, Epstein took a shot on two players whose previous teams thought were done, and consequently bettered his club. When was the last time that Bavasi brought in a throw in from a bigger deal, or a player off the scrap heap who has put up numbers like this:
(Lowell)
Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR
2006 32 BOS AL 153 573 79 163 47 1 20
RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB
80 2 2 47 61 .284 .339 .475 104 272
SH SF IBB HBP GDP
0 7 5 4 22
Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR
2007 33 BOS AL 154 589 79 191 37 2 21
RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB
120 3 2 53 71 .324 .378 .501 124 295
SH SF IBB HBP GDP
0 8 4 3 1
(Ortiz)
Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR
2003 27 BOS AL 128 448 79 129 39 2 31
RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB
101 0 0 58 83 .288 .369 .592 144
SH SF IBB HBP GDP
265 0 2 8 1 9
MVP Vote-5
Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR
2004 28 BOS AL 150 582 94 175 47 3 41
RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB
139 0 0 75 133 .301 .380 .603 145 351
SH SF IBB HBP GDP
0 8 8 4 12
SilverSlugger, MVP Vote-4, AllStar
Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR
2005 29 BOS AL 159 601 119 180 40 1 47
RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB
148 1 0 102 124 .300 .397 .604 158 363
SH SF IBB HBP GDP
0 9 9 1 13
SilverSlugger, MVP Vote-2,AllStar
Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR
2006 30 BOS AL 151 558 115 160 29 2 54
RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB
137 1 0 119 117 .287 .413 .636 161 355
SH SF IBB HBP GDP
0 5 23 4 12
SilverSlugger,MVP Vote-3,AllStar
Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR
2007 31 BOS AL 149 549 116 182 52 1 35
RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB
117 3 1 111 103 .332 .445 .621 171 341
SH SF IBB HBP GDP
0 3 12 4 16
AllStar
Granted Lowell’s 2006 numbers are not jaw dropping, he has been a solid player for the Bo Sox. Bavasi is either incapable, or unwilling to make such moves. My main point is that Epstein is not afraid to pull the trigger on a big deal to make his club better…(see the acquistions of Curt Schilling/Josh Beckett both pivital pieces in the Bo Sox last two World Series Titles). And yes you have to pay big to get something in return, that is the whole point. We have some peices here that could possibly net us a difference maker.
All that being said, Edtrak i do respect your opinion’s, and for the most part I have tried to listen objectively to your side, and will continue to. All i ask is that in the future you not put words in my mouth.
I take it back, he was a decent prospect, but he didn’t have “major leaguer” written all over him. Lots of similar kids get traded, and never have what it takes. Minor league stats are subjective. Edgar couldn’t hit the ball when he was in the Northwest League. You can’t rely on stats alone to determine who’s going to make it.
Every once and a while, you get one of these guys who develops. But far more often, you get guys who never see any time in the majors.
And, in a PTBNL, Seattle doesn’t get a choice of who’s sent. Generally, they provide a list of players, and the Twins pick from that list. Seattle can’t pull anyone from the list, because they have second thoughts.
Who cares that he rolled the dice on Ortiz? He had little to lose, so why not? I doubt Epstein expected what he got. To imply that he had some Super GM magic qualities is a huge stretch. It’s not a gamble to buy a $2 lotto ticket. It’s a gamble to buy 10,000 $2 lotto tickets.
As for Lowell, you do realize he had a HUGE contract, for the numbers he was producing? Lowell wasn’t his primary target, it was Beckett. And, to get Josh, the BoSox had to TAKE Lowell’s contract. It wasn’t like they were expecting both in the package. They had Youklis ready to take third.
Both deals worked out great for the BoSox. But,there was more luck, than brilliant strategy. Ortiz could have remained as mediocre was his last seasons in Minnesota. Lowell could have stayed the over paid burden he was when he was acquired.
Yes, Epstein has made some good trades. But he had prospects and a bankroll to accomplish them. You’re kidding yourself if the think Seattle had either of those available to acquire any top of the line player. They have the Jones card they can play now. Would you feel better if Bavasi was more daring and traded him? Because, those are the kind of prospects the BoSox gave up. Personally, I’d rather have both Webb (traded for the last few good years of Curt Schilling) and Ramirez (instead of Howell). So, it’s not like the BoSox didn’t pay a steep price.
It’s not really daring of Bill Gates to take a risk on a million dollar company. He makes that much money in an hour. And, it’s not as daring when you can simply outspend other teams (See Dice-K) because you’ve got the extra dough.
I admire Epstein, but he’s got much deeper pockets to get things done. Give him a small market team with a limited budget, then we’ll know how brilliant he is.
Ummm….the point of having a smart front office is NOT that they never make bad decisions, but that they make more good decisions than bad ones, that their decisions, AS A WHOLE, pan out more often than other front offices. (And I wouldn’t be quick to write off Dice-K; not an instant ace, correct, but he wasn’t chopped liver, and there’s a likelihood he’ll improve with a second year in the league)(and perhaps if they don’t try to force him into the prototypical American pitcher mold….)
Sure, Ortiz was “lucky”—but that’s the point. He falls into a decision making paradigm where a team can pounce on him and use him. The only luck there is that the numbers are so huge.
But getting back on track…the problem (as I see it) is that this front office considers attitude and leadership as talents on the par with batting ability or pitching ability. That’s nonsense. You can’t trade off a bit of hitting ability or power for leadership. Those types of personal attributes are PLUSES–things you look for ON TOP OF the basic playing ability. You can’t lead from the bench (or the DL), and you can’t lead if you’re a mediocre player.
Edtrak-
Freak’n a’. Do you pay attention to anything anyone writes in there posts. Did i ever say that the Bo Sox signed Ortiz to a huge contract when they first brought him in? No i didn’t! What i meant by saying that Epstein rolled the dice on Ortiz was that he took a chance on a player who was thought to be on the decline. I didn’t mean that they risked a lot of money on him, because they didn’t.
And yes I knew that Lowell was a throw in in the Beckett deal. I said so in my last post…
“When was the last time that Bavasi brought in a throw in from a bigger deal, or a player off the scrap heap who has put up numbers like this…” post #31. In case you are unable to understand inference when you see it, the players i was talking about in that sentence were Lowell, and Ortiz.
And yes I realize how much the Bo Sox gave up to get Schilling and Beckett, I said that also in my last post…
“And yes you have to pay big to get something in return, that is the whole point…” post #31. Sure the Bo Sox gave up some GREAT players to get Beckett, and Schilling. Thats not the point. The point is, those moves were a huge factor in the Bo Sox winning 2 of the last 4 World Series. How many titles in the last 2 years have the Marlins won with Hanley Ramirez, and Anibal Sanchez? How many titles have the D-Backs won since trading Schilling to the Bo Sox? Were the Schilling and Beckett deals worth the players they gave up…HELL yes they were they won two freak’n World Series titles. So you would rather have Ramirez, Sanchez, and Webb then two titles? I am trying to be as objective as possible with you Ed, but that is just ridiculous…
Yes the Bo Sox have deep pockets, but don’t act like the M’s are unwilling to spend money. 110 mil is not a small payroll in any stretch of the imagination. In comparison to Boston and New York, sure it is smaller, but the M’s are willing to spend money. Yes i would be willing to see Jones go if it meant bringing in a player such as Johan Santana, or another elite arm. The M’s have no prospects? Do the names Clement, Jones, Triunfel, Tillman, Balentien ring any bells? I am not saying the M’s prospects are equal to the prospects the Bo Sox gave away in said trades, but the M’s do have some valuable pieces in there system that they could use to bring in an impact player.
And i am not saying that Epstein is a genius. I never once said that. I am merely pointing out that he is a good gm. I will kill to have a guy with a freak’n clue pulling the strings for the M’s.
Meant i would kill to have a guy with a freak’n clue pulling the strings for the M’s… : )
Want to get away from the annoying? Don’t feed the troll….simple enough.
I laughed when I saw the Insta-Poll results and thought they might be a little different if this site were called VeteranInsider.com
I just made the first vote on the latest insta-poll. I vote sell the vets and here because from what I can see, outside of Ichiro and Puetz, none of the vets we have on this team will be very productive players and will carry little value in 3 to 4 years. The Mariners think they are a contender so they will never sell off all the old guys, but if I am using AZ, COL, and Cleveland as a model for my org., I deal Sexson, Ibanez, Vidro, and possibly Washburn for prospects to stock the farm system further. Broussard can stay and play 1st. Call up Clement early and platoon him at C/DH/1st. Call up Balentein. (I know this is all pretty pointless talk cause thats not how we operate, but for building a sustainable winning club, the way the FO does it is pointless in my mind). Beltre cannot go because we wouldnt have anybody offensively or defensively to fill that gap.
Go ahead Edtrak, lay it on me brother…lol.
Tell us why this wont happen my man.
On a side note, it seems to me that everybody just needs to stop giving Edtrak such a hard time because he simply DISAGREES. He is correct in saying that he has never attacked anybodies character, he simply is bringing some of the fatalistic views taken on here about how much our front office is funkin’ it all up, and bringing them back down to earth. Understand that people. Dont make an enemy out of a fellow fan for goodness sakes. Edtrak never has, and thank god he continues to post, or this site would start to look a little one sided.
Uncle Al, you must understand Edtraks point when he says the Mariners probably didnt hire an entire staff to depend on it failing, in order to replace it all the next year. If you are in fact right about that, that this is how the FO runs things, than kudos to you for truly understanding how mentally retarded these suits are. But I just dont see it either. I think they wanna win, but just dont know the formula for building a long term winner. Hopefully they watched these last playoffs and took notes.
Edtrak is very direct in his arguements and yes a little sarcastic as well, so whats wrong with that? I cant find anything wrong with that. In fact I find it refreshingly honest.
Also, Edtrak, try and see if you can pick your battles and be a little more patient with people. They are not used to your debative nature is all. Sometimes people feel if they are incorrect in their arguments, they are somehow devalued as a person. Its simply irrational and people grow up from that, but just keep doin what your doin Edtrak. People will catch on.
You’re speaking my language d2ret. I want to see Clement, Johnson and Balentein here in fairly short order. These guys all still have some questions to answer but I want them all here sooner rather than later. Rohrbaugh is probably only a #5 guy but why not him as well? I wouldn’t mind seeing Feirabend in the rotation as well, sooner rather than later. Lets get the youth movement going! Yeah, its not how we operate but it’s how we should operate. There are alot of good examples to prove that it can work.
Let me add something. Could we get that much for guys like Sexon and Vidro ect?
No, slack, but do they need to get anything but “some” salary relief?
If you ask me, and I guess in a way you are, saving 25% of Sexson’s contract or more is enough to hand him over to any team in baseball.
Same with Vidro, if you can get away with saving 2 of the 6 owed to him, do it.
This team is at the stage right now where if they don’t make the right decisions soon on their young guys, they’ll up selling out for a mediocre roster.
The current 25 isn’t good enough to be willing to sell/sit/block kids for.
Don’t do it, Bill.
Conor is onto something.
Maybe the Mariners would talk to me if i started that site, eh?
Although, coincidentally, the first choice is probably the right choice.
Jason,
When will the offseason plan come out? And do you know if the Mariners are even considering getting rid of Vidro? I would be fine with them eating most of the money due to hm so he can get off the roster. Would there be anyone that would be willing to take him if we paid all but two million that is owed to him? I’m guessing some other AL team?
This weekend I’ll get that going.
Right after I finish the newsletter — waiting on a return email on some pretty interesting information.
I’d say tomorrow night for part one of the plan and the second part, the nuts and bolts, on Saturday.
The newsletter should be sent out tomorrow night.
Jason,
Thanks. I’m pretty sure I’m signed up for the newsletter. Is there any way to check to see if I am?
So, how do I get signed up for the newsletter?
enter your email address in the little box titled “Sign up for newsletter”
It is currently below the poll
acb… email me with the address you used to sign up and I can certainly check and make sure you are on the list.
There are currently 31 people who signed up but did not confirm their subscription. Those 31 will not get tomorrow night’s newsletter.
d2ret #40
Maybe it would some help if you understood why Edtrak is a moron and some here just don’t want to waste their time on him. This is my last attempt because I’m tired of wasting my time on him. Besides being arrogant and just plain annoying, he doesn’t comprehend anything he reads and then tries to treat you like an idiot based on his assumptions of what he thinks you said. Then he hits you with the dumbest arguments I’ve ever heard which have nothing to do with what you said. If you wish to have this lovefest with Edtrak and waste your time, that is your business and I will be the last person to interfere. The last point is that I don’t need you lecturing me about needing to understand Edtrak’s point of view which had nothing to do with what I said or was trying to say in the first place. His point of view was based on what he thought I was saying and is totally wrong and just plain stupid as that is not what I said in my original statement.
Edtrak - the Dbacks gave up Webb for Schilling?
Excuse me, I mean the Red Sox gave up Webb for Schilling?
Naw, was Fossum…….of which Boston obviously got the best of the deal.
Don’t know why I was thinking Webb.
BTW, Uncle Al…..I’m not the one calling people names……nor flaming others who don’t share your opinion. d2ret#40 gets it, you don’t.
BTW, Edtrak…..It’s not name calling at all. Moron and Imbecile are just two words that describe you as accurately as is possible. Hemorroid would describe you also as you don’t know when to go away. Bretticus in #38 is right as there is nothing you can say to a fool that is going to change anything.
Lets get back on topic guys…….
I can not wait for that newsletter to come out.
I said I was just getting into the stats of Minor leaguers that year and the stats from that ear at that time had “Breakout” written all over it, IMO.
1996 Wisconsin Midw Age:20 Sea A G:129 AB:485 R:89 H:156 2B:34 3B:2 HR:18 RBI:93 SB:3 CS:4 BB:52 SO:108 HBP:5 IBB:8 SH:2 SF:4 DP:5 Avg:.322 OBP:.390 SLG:.511 OPS.901
“Player to be named later” shouldn’t put up numbers in that range ever! Unless you’re talking about they did that and now they’re 24 and haven’t approached it again…
Let me clear up the “can’t take a player off the list if you change your mind.” He never should have been on that list on Aug 29th to be the player named later on Sept. 13th. We’re not talking about a transaction that his name was bandied about before he was having that year, or early in that year. It was a 2 week decision.
I wouldn’t completely sell out on the poll, there are veterans I wouldn’t trade unless the right deal came from it. If Santana was willing to sign a longterm contract at the time of the trade, Felix is off limits, because what would be the point of that, but I’d let Anyone Else go. For the most part I wouldn’t want to trade (Most want to keep first) Felix, Putz, Jones, Clement, Beltre, Ichiro, Batista, Sherrill, Betancourt, Balentein, Washburn and Lopez. I’d trade Raul and Kenji as well as the deals you were talking about with Sexson and Vidro (save some dough and move on…) I had to vote for trading the veterans in general, because I realize status quo is Sexson and Vidro. They need to go. Raul can still fit in for the length of his contract as well as all the other veterans, but any team who can afford to eat a large contract that’s not producing should do so ASAP. Wouldn’t ANY other large market team have moved on from Sexson a LONG time ago? I understand you had to show Beltre you were serious to get him, but he’s here and he’s not winning with a Black Hole at 1B!
I was looking at some of the FA pitchers and came away wondering about Jason Jennings. I know he was hurt last year and had surgery on his flexor bundle, but I’m wondering if he would be worth the risk if we could get him on a reasonable contract. What do you guys think? What about Kerry Wood for our set up spot? And while I don’t like Kyle Loshe, he won’t require draft pick compensation, so if the money isn’t ridiculous, maybe something like three years, $18 mil? Personally I’d rather see the M’s try to acquire someone like Scott Olsen or J.P. Howell and save the money for a big named SP next year.
One more thing…I’ve been wondering about Jeremy Bonderman for the last couple of years. Is there any chance that the Tigers might be willing to move him? I know that he hasn’t really taken the next step yet that most were expecting, but he’s young and pairing him with Felix while waiting for arms like Morrow, Tillman, Butler, Aumont, etc to develop would make for a solid 1-2 punch, then down the road a rotation of Felix, Bonderman, Tillman, Morrow and Butler/Aumont could be really dangerous.
Sure, Bonderman would be a great fit, but realisticly, who would the M’s trade be able to trade for him? The Tigers have an outfield that is basically full, with Cameron Maybin waiting in the wings, and they just acquired Edgar Renteria. Plus you also have to ask yourself why would the Tigers want to get rid of a young impact arm like Bonderman, when the team doesn’t have to many glaring weaknesses. I would love for Bonderman to be brought in, but really its not logically for the Tigers to make that move…
Bonderman also signed a major contract with the Tigers at the beginning of last season for a lot of money. He’s in their long term plans so I don’t think he’s going anywhere for a while.
Someone brought up Bonderman last season, too…someone also asked about him to Tim Kjurkjian on KJR one time. The answer is always the same; No way - why in the hell would the Tigers deal him? You don’t trade away young ML arms with talent like that.
On your previous post though, I think that Jennings could work here, assuming that his elbow is sound and he can get his sinker/control back on track he is the perfect type pitcher for this team/park. He should be pretty affordable as well.
I would rather have Jennings than any other US FA starter on the market right now - the price should be right and the stuff is there. And maybe Stottlemyre could give him some of that fire that it seems he was missing on the hill last season.
Jason, do you think Duane Shaffer is a good fit for this team?
Yeah, i really do.
His experience and track record or both assets to any team. Fontaine has known him for awhile, too.
One thing I really like about Stottlemyer…..he will EXPECT his pitchers to throw inside. I think that was a huge problem, not this year, the the last several.
Yeah, Felix will be ejected six times in 32 starts, but still post mediocre numbers in the other 26.
Yay.
Nobody says you have to get ejected. It’s just the way you have to pitch, to be successful. If you can’t expand your strikezone, you’re making it easier for the hitter to zone in.
You can’t be afraid to pitch inside….period. Nobody’s saying to hit people. But, you don’t let hitters get comfortable.
I th