We all expected Seattle Mariners phenom Felix Hernandez to be the King in 2007, and become the ace that he’s capable of becoming.
That didn’t happen, and there’s more than one reason why.
Flaws in his delivery, inconsistent release points and lack of experience at facing adversity have haunted the 21-year-old over the past two seasons.
But there are answers to most, if not all of the questions, and many of them are outlined below.
If you are not a familar with what Hernandez is all about or are reading this as a fan of another team and have not been exposed to the right-hander’s abilities, Click Here for a Scouting Report on Felix.
Mechanics: Felix’s mechanics are somewhat violent with lots of effort, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s destined for injury. His delivery and mechanics aren’t likely the reason for his poor command. Repeating his delivery is the issue, and changes to the mechanics of his entire pitching motion can help, most notably simplified actions between start and release.
Hernandez’s fastball is often flat, partly because he isn’t staying on top of it, which is at least partially due to his delivery pulling his body (and partly due to his head still flying out and pointed at the hitter too far into his delivery, like seen in the photo at left), then his arm toward the first base side, forcing him to compensate his release point. That makes it awfully tough to be consistent.
If you take a look at Felix’s first two starts of the year, where he looked like a freaking world beater against the Oakland Athletics and Boston Red Sox, two clubs with offensive styles that have typically given the kid fits over his first year and a half in the bigs - patient, gap hitters with some power in the middle of the order - he was clearly staying on top of his pitches, not just the fastball, but the slider, curve and change as well.
After his DL stint, he was all over the place with his release point, and I also noticed in a handful of starts, including his June start at home versus the Baltimore Orioles, that he was actually staying too tall and therefore leaving many of his offerings up in the zone, including his slider, which looked very ordinary that day
Change Up the Lefties: Lefties are slugging .493 with a .299 average against him in his career, and that’s obviously a rather large problem. He’s thrown only 11% changeups to lefties, even though they have hit just .233 on the change and hitters overall bat just .252 against it.
He must find more consistency and confidence in his changeup, because if he wants to be the King, he’ll need to keep the left-handed bats off balance.
The Flat Fastball: Hitters are batting .282 on the fastball with a .466 slugging. Adjustments should be made to help him stay on top of it, including convincing the kid that throwing 98 is not necessarily, well, necessary.
We’ve seen Hernandez dominate games for the Mariners with a good fastball with downward plane and biting movement to his glove side, which is a perfect compliment to one of the best sliders in baseball.
Most pitching gurus, including the King Guru himself Mike Marshall, a former big-league pitcher, believe that a pitcher’s stride length should be at least equal to his height. Many pitchers come up short in that category, even some of the better starters in baseball. But for many pitchers who wish to maximize velocity and protect the arm, it can be critical to long-term success.
Felix may not be a candidate for such an adjustment – his stride is approximately 80-85% of his height of 6-3 – because of the problem he’s having with his flat heater and inconsistent location up in the strike zone with his fastball and curve.
But you can certainly bet that pitching minds like Jim Colborn and Norm Charlton are going to explore such an idea, if they are both indeed brought aboard the M’s coaching staff this winter.
A Better Gameplan: It often appears as if there isn’t a gameplan, and though he’s a young, somewhat inexperienced pitcher, there’s no excuse for toeing the rubber without a pretty detailed scheme against every hitter in the lineup. The blame here belongs at the feet of both pitching coach Rafael Chaves and Hernandez himself.
As much I like Chaves, it was probably a good idea to replace him at this point. Not because he’s incapable, but because the problems with the club’s franchise pitcher might be more effectively repaired by a veteran pitching coach with different, more proven philosophies and ideas.
It’s time for Hernandez to hit the classroom, so to speak, and diligently keep a book on hitters and spend more time with his coaches and catchers working on how to attack specific hitters and ball clubs.
The New Coaches: Hopefully, Colborn and Charlton, if hired, rub off on Hernandez quite a bit. They each have their strengths, both being hard-nosed and aggressive, but Charlton’s macho take on things might not be good for Hernandez at times. Colborn is best known for perparation and great programs in between starts and during the offseason, so there certainly will be an improvement in that area.
I recall reading in one of the blogs on ESPN (I think it was Rob Neyer’s) that Colborn had begun to alienate and be less than friendly with his pitchers in Pittsburgh before he was fired. Is that of any concern?
Also, I see that Leo Mazzone was fired today by the Orioles. Will he call it quits or if Perlozzo is hired by the M’s to be the bench coach could he potentially be interested in being the pitching coach here?
I don’t know Mazzone at all… not sure if he’d come this far west or not.
But this is the sort of guy available that might make the Mariners wait on hiring Colborn.
Jason, what do you see as the primary qualities to look for in a pitching coach?
While there’s the mechanics issues and stuff, I’ve always thought it was the pitching coaches responsibility to help pitchers match their skills against the opposing line ups.
work ethic, relationships with pitchers, track record, and i like the pitching coaches who are former pitchers, and/or have scouted.
hey jason, the link to Felix’ scouting report isn’t working I don’t know if it’s just me, but just to let you know.
It works for me, 01v, but try this one…
Just for 01v-dubs
Jason,
What is it about a changeup that makes it particularly effective against lefties, or if you are a lefty, against righties?
Deception, slack, both in pitch speed and the action on the pitch.
Unlike a fastball where the hitter wants to pick up the pitch as soon as possible so he can get his swing going in time, when a hitter is dialing up for such a pitch and gets a change, he’s out in front.
Against a right-hander, typically, a left-handed hitter picks up the arm action and is thinking fastball… since the average righty is easier for a lefty to pick up than a righty due to angle, he’s on the heater NOW… but it’s a pitch 8-12 mph slower.
If that lefty bat is facing a lefty, he’s late on picking up the fastball and therefore a change isn’t throwing him off as much and he has a better chance of hitting it and hitting it hard.
The action on most changeups is down and away from the hitter of the opposite hand, too. A righties change moves down and if any horizontal movement is included, it’s away from the left-handed hitter.
Obviously, vice versa for the lefty pitcher versus a righty, and Jamie Moyer and Tom Glavine are perfect examples of that.
I’m sure there is more to it, slack, and because I’m a geek and want to hear the answer from a scout, I sent an email out to a few former pitchers who are now scouting in the big leagues.
I’ll post anything additional that they add… cool?
The biggest gripe I have with the idea that good minor league coaches make good major league coaches is that the jobs aren’t the same.
As much as I dislike what Piniella can do to young players, he has made one very true statement. Paraphrasing, he said you shouldn’t have to teach kids the skills it takes to be a player.
By that, it means coaches shouldn’t be teaching, they should be refining. For a pitching coach, IMHO, their biggest function is not to demonstrate how to throw a curveball. But, to take a kid like Felix, and teach him how to prepare. Find ways to build his confidence. Teach the working aspects of the game.
That’s one of the reasons I wasn’t excited about Chavez. He’s a great guy at teaching pitching…..but, I was worried about his lack of experience in preparing pitchers and building a game plan.
I still hold that the fact that it took something posted on the internet, that Chavez presented to Felix, before he’d listen to what Raffy had to say. It should have never been questioned……and, without a doubt, he should have NEVER been allowed to vary from what he was instructed to do.
You think Charlton wouldn’t have been in his face? (not that I advocate Normy).
I go back to the Bull Durham reference where Cosner told the guy what pitch was coming……then, made a point to tell Robbins to never shake him off again.
When Felix understands the Pro game, then he can call his own pitches. But he shouldn’t be treated as gold, UNTIL he shines.
You’re absolutely right, Edtrak, the jobs are NOT the same. Chaves served his purpose with Felix in his infant years and then his toddler years, but as he reaches the “teen” years, he needs someone who can provide proven theories and adjustments to a power pitcher’s game.
Chaves probably isn’t that guy.
Sounds like McLaren might be interested in Mel Stottlemyre being the pitching coach. Would you rank him above Colborn?
After readin the two Felix pieces, i just hope we get a pitching coach who can relay these things to him and get him focused..
Right now it’s like he’s wasting his potential cause he doesnt have a plan out there and nobody seems that interested in pointing out these minor changes that could yield great results
I’m not sure what Stottlemyre has EVER done as a PC to earn a reputation as one of the game’s better coaches. I never saw it, still don’t, and would prefer to not to hire a guy that may or may not be here for an entire year let alone the life of his contract.
He’s tool old and has health issues to deal with.
No thanks.
Mazzone, yes. Colborn, yes.
Re: 8,
That would be really cool, Jason. Thanks.
Jason, what’s your opinion on Rick Kranitz? The Times reported that he is a candidate and has already interviewed for the PC vacancy.
Mazzone’s agent after the firing says he’s still got the “fire in the belly”.
I hope Jason doesn’t mind, but here’s a link to an interview with Mazzone from May 2007 to know what makes him tick:
Mazzone Link
Larry Stone also reported today that the M’s have already interviewed fired Florida Marlins pitching coach Rick Kranitz for the M’s job.
I don’t mind the links at all Lance, but use the html tags to make sure the link doesn’t leave the page… I fixed the Mazzone one.
I personally don’t know anything about Kranitz, but I did talk to an Astros scout that knows him well and says he’d be solid and that it might hook the two clubs up with a trade for somewhat troubled but very talented LHP Scott Olsen.
I’d be happy to use “html tags” if I knew how. Any assistance to help educate me along those lines, including any link, would be appreciated. I simply use the rather crude copy/paste method.
I don’t know if I’d catagorize Olson as “somewhat” troubled. He seems to be quite troubled to the point of fighting officers arresting him for DUI. He’s been troubled for quite awhile, now, and seems quite immature. I wouldn’t take the risk with him, nor does it seem like a typical Mariners management move, although those kinds of things don’t seem to bother Bavasi as much as it would Lincoln and Armstrong. Those kinds of players, if they ever get it worked out, take years to do so. See Dennis Eckersley and Dennis Martinez. Better options shouldn’t be hard to find. He’s probably just a young Jeff Weaver, headwise. Probably worse.
Kranitz resigned he was not fired.
I gotta disagree with Lance on Olsen.
I think he is exactly the type of guy the M’s should be going for.
I know all the stories about his problems with the police this season, plus how he has rubbed people the wrong way with an arrogant attitude.
However, he is a very very talented pitcher. The scouting reports on him are all positive, as he is a lefty with great stuff. His K rate slipped a bit this last season, but the year before, and during his minor league years, he has always gotten a lot of K’s. As a lefty flyball pitcher, he would be a good fit in Safeco.
Basically, what it comes down to is “which is the real Olsen”. I would bet that this year was the fluke, as his track record previous to this was excellent.
The drunk driving and resisting arrest thing is problematic. However, Olsen used to get props for his ‘bulldog attitude’. He is only 23, and has two years of service time, so he will be cheap for a few more years. This is a perfect time to buy low on the guy if the Marlin’s are looking to move him.
He is exactly what the M’s need: a cheap, durable young lefty who projects as a #2 starter.
I don’t know why Lance says that “Those kinds of players, if they ever get it worked out, take years to do so. See Dennis Eckersley and Dennis Martinez. Better options shouldn’t be hard to find. He’s probably just a young Jeff Weaver, headwise. Probably worse.” Olsen has nearly nothing in common with those players. Why would he take years to come around? What are you basing that on? He has already had success at the ML level. There is nothing to wait on. He is already a solid big league starter, and he will likely improve.
Plus, the Marlin’s and M’s are pretty good trade matches. The Marlin’s need outfield help, and Balentien and Reed could be part of a package.
If the M’s could get Olsen without shipping out Clement or Jones, they should do it.
How many incidents has Olsen had?
Seriously, I can only think of the one and no matter what happened with the one, if that’s it, he’s not a seriously troubled kid.
But I don’t know, maybe there were other incidents.
IIRC, there’s always been attitude issues with Olsen that I first came upon when reading about him on the BA Marlins’ Top 10 prospects list.
Jason, I doubt you’ll recall this but I made reference to that back in your ITP days when I suggested that Yorman Bazardo would be a better pick up for the M’s for just that reason (a guy the M’s did subsequently pick up for Ron Villone and, I feel, gave up too early on).
Anymore prior “incidents” from 2007? Not that I recall. However, I’ll do a little due dilligence and report back. As talented as he might be, I’m really uncomfortable with the M’s trading for the guy (he wouldn’t be cheap. Not right now,anyway).
I’ll report back, soon I hope based on my time.
As to my basis for such a statement, I already cited Dennis Eckersley and Dennis Martinez. Seems some guys need to hit almost rock bottom before they get themselves straight. At 23, if there is such a problem, I doubt Olsen is anywhere near that.
I talked to a Marlins minor league coach and he says Olsen just lets things get to him and he’s been acting out on those frustrations.
Basically, he said he just needs to mature, but that he isn’t a head case.
To the extent that’s true, then I’d have to ask why would the Marlins be willing to give
up on the guy with all that talent, lefthanded and at 23?
And, what would it take to pry him away from Florida? Again, I’m sure it wouldn’t be cheap.
As I said, I wouldn’t be comfortable with the whole thing. Simply changing uniforms isn’t going to change the gray matter between the ears.
And, if he’s already been busted for DUI once, cop confrontation notwithstanding, their’s an obvious red flag right there.
They aren’t going to GIVE him away, Lance, like you said. One of his problems was with the bench coach and bullpen coach, who kind of unfairly teamed up on him, but he lost his cool and thus the rep that he’s a problem.
But considering the market, the Mariners have to take risks, and these are the best risks to take. Young, cheap, upside… and it’s not like he was terrible on the mound this season.
I don’t know the Marlins’ stance on Olsen, but it’s not going to take a King’s ransom.
I’m sure they’ll start with Jones and Clement, but Balentien and a solid relief prospect might do it.
And I’d do that as long as Olsen checked out. And I don’t just mean medically. I’d be talking to every source I could about his character.
Look at M’s guys busted for DUI. Mac Suzuki, Richie Sexson. Are those guys you’re pinning any Mariner hopes on? Than why Olsen?
Dude… if Sexson was a better hitter, he’d be a great pickup. Has ZERO to do with anything that happened off the field.
And nobody is pinning the hopes of the 08 M’s on Scott Olsen or ANY OTHER YOUNG PITCHER.
Get real, man. Geez.
DUIs are terrible. It’s one of the worse decisions anyone can make. And if he had more than one I’d wouldn’t even consider him, because that indicates a pattern of the same bad decisions.
But holy crap, Lance, get off your high horse with this.
The bench coach and bullpen coach teamed up on him, Jason? I’m not arguing what you’re saying, but does he have trouble dealing with some good natured ribbing? Is he simply high strung, and does he take that with him to the mound?
It’s easy to fall in love with physical talent, but I’m sure you realize there’s been a plethora of guy who had oodles of talent who never had successful big league careers. That’s why I’m not excited about going after those kinds of players.
Going after Olsen would be a Bob Whitsett kind of move, if I may use that analogy. But, in the end it seems that (the physical talent over character philosophy) hurt his teams much more than helped. The Seahawks were much better, even Superbowl better, without Whitsett, and although the Sonics reached the NBA finals once, it was hardly because of Kendall Gill or Vincent Askew. Less physically gifted guys like Scottie Pippen weren’t good enough for him.
Sorry, Jason, didn’t realize I was on a high horse. Just saying DUIs raise red flags, which just make me tend to feel there’s a need to act with caution. And, it’s worse when the athlete chooses to have it out with the officer. If you guys want to bang the drum for Olsen, fine. I’m just not near as excited about the thought of acquiring him, for the reasons I stated.
And, in the future I’ll endeavor to keep my arguments to myself so as to not upset anyone.
The two coaches had every right to be ticked at him, he had said or did something - I don’t know what it was - and was deserved of some criticism and when he didn’t take it the right way, he got what I was told was “moody” on them.
Instead of just dealing with it, like Olsen should have done himself, the two coaches ignored it and took it to their bosses.
And dude, please. If teams only signed good character guys they’d end up like, well, many of the Mariners teams of the last six years.
If the M’s do their homework on him and find that he’s not a jackass but just had some unfortunate incidents where he made some bad decisions, then his character questions have to be curbed for the most part when making a choice on whether you want to make a deal for him or not.
You can’t base your entire opinion of whether he’d help the Mariners in 2008 and beyond based on the fact that he got into it with a pair of coaches and got a DUI in 2007.
And Basketball is an awful comparison, because team chemistry is more critical in basketball than it is in any other major sport, and it’s not close.
All you need in baseball is “enough” of it… teams without great clubhouses win in baseball all the time.
You just can’t have a divided locker room. And I don’t see how anyone could say Olsen would divide the clubhouse. You think JJ Putz and Miguel Batista and Jarrod Washburn would ever let Olsen or any other youngster do that?
Not a chance.
Evaluate his future on the mound, involve whatever risk you think there might be off the field and make a decision. But it should be 80-20, in favor of his baseball skills.
I’m not suggesting that a team needs to bring in only good character boy scouts, but I’d think they wouldn’t want to bring in players who would underachieve because of immaturity, or from having a lack of mental fortitude. Or, worse yet, would become a malcontent or cancer.
Not saying Olsen would be, but it’s something that needs to be considered, I would think. And, a player’s past track record is the only thing you can go on, unless you want to trust that player’s word that the negative stuff is all behind him.
It’s especially important to consider when you have to give up a lot to get him, as Olsen probably would. I guess it’s just a risk vs reward issue.
The bottom line is Olsen is a quality left handed arm. Beggers can’t be choosers, and with 1-2 spots in the rotation coming open, the m’s are going to have to role the dice and be creative in the trade market, because more than likely they are not going to find the answer in the upcoming barren free agent market. Olsen has the ability to be an impact arm. I have no problem with the M’s picking him up.
Last time i checked, Jose Guillen had “attitude/maturity problems” when the Bavasi brought him aboard last winter, and look at the incident free season he put up for the Mariners. As long as the M’s are assured by physicans about Olsen’s physical health, and by Olsen himself about maturity issues, i think bringing Olsen in would be a great move.
And Jason great point about the Veteran leaders not allowing Olsen to act out, i totally agree. Olsen may have acted out because of the simple fact that for the most part, Florida doesn’t have the kind of seasoned veteran leadership in the pitching staff that the M’s have. There may be no one there willing to sit his butt down and tell him that is not how a major leaguer goes about his business. As long as it doesn’t cost them Jones, Clement, or Tillman i say bring him in now.
With Florida’s need for outfield help, there affinity for Jeremy Reed, the apparent expendablity of Wladimir Balentien, and the M’s glut of veteran arm riches, i think a deal could be struck to bring him here without giving up to much. Slot him behind Felix, and the rotation is better than last seasons, period.
Hope ya don’t mind, jesse21, I paragraphed your comment to make it easier to read.
Lance,
Sure, they have to consider that, but it’s a very small part of the equation.
If he’s a No. 3 starter, he’s a No. 3 starter. With or without the attitude.
Oops. In my last paragraph i meant to say glut of relief arm riches…
Jason do you think he is a #3 starter? I was under the impression he had #2 ability.
Olson would solve a short term and long term problem in our starting rotation.
I’ve read the Marlins are targeting pitching and a catcher.
Jason, do your contacts with the Marlins give you the impression that the owner is trying to get more cheap with the product?
Frankly, I’d think to get Olsen the Marlins would insist on Tillman. Not sure if Butler would do, with his injury plagued 2007. Can’t imagine Thomas or Feierabend would be acceptable, either.
If they want relievers, I’d think Eric O’Flaherty would have to go, at least.
Nor do I think Jeremy Reed has much trade value left, although Jason may feel differently about that. Not for a current major league starter, anyway.
The Fish are looking for catching? What? Not happy with Miguel Olivo? Little joke there.
If the M’s were to trade Jeremy Reed it would not be as the centerpiece of a deal obviously, he would more than likely be an add on to the deal.
I added his name to the trade talk because of Florida’s previous interest in him, and there outfield needs. And if the Marlins are asking for Tillman, then you don’t make the deal. Frankly I don’t think the Marlins are going to get a prospect of Tillman’s caliber from any MLB team.
In instances such as the Marlins find themselves in, (i.e. trying to jettison a player who has been labeled a “problem child”) you don’t normally see the player being traded for a king’s ransom, unless the player in question is a top tier caliber player.
Personally I think (as Jason said in post #27) that a package that includes Wlad, and a solid relief arm, or maybe Wlad and a catcher such as Rob Johnson (if the Marlins are truely looking for catching help) would seal the deal.
“Frankly I don’t think the Marlins are going to get a prospect of Tillman’s caliber from any MLB team.”
I mean I don’t think the Marlins will get a prospect of Tillman’s caliber for Olsen, from any MLB team.
I think the bottom line is we need to get Felix some more help. He is a 21 yr old kid with immense talent who is still trying to figure out how to pitch in the big leagues. The M’s have to bring in talent to help out the King. No more Jeff Weaver, Ho Ram deals please. Help the King out. Bring in Johan Santana. Bring in Olsen. Find a way to wiggle Tim Hudson away from the Braves. Role the dice please. Help the kid out. Do freak’n something….
Count me as a ‘yes’ on Olsen.
Guillen’s prior issues were pointed out above by jesse21 and I think you would be hard pressed to find anything negative about him this season - from the outside looking in, I actually think he was one of the team leaders.
Quality pitching is worth a personality sacrifice in my book.
Back to the article Jason, what do you think about the whole Mazzone-Perlozzo connection? If McLaren brings in his old buddy Perlozzo to be the bench coach, does that put us in the lead to land Mazzone?
I think it does, randall, and the only question is will Mazzone come this far west to work.
Any update on Austin Bibens-Dirkx? I know he had some arm troubles; how has he progressed?
funny u should mention that, Greg, I was just talking to a buddy about doing an AB-D story.
Gimme a few days to call Austin and get the latest.
sweet, thanks
Guillen was a different situation. His issues never went beyond the lockerroom. To my knowledge he’d never been in trouble with the law. His problems were always while in uniform. So, I don’t know if you can use him as an example for minimizing picking up someone with legal problems in his past. Two difference animals, really.
The baseball team on the field is actually better of if the players’ issues are with the law versus solely in the clubhouse/locker room or with coaches or the manager.
So I have no idea what your point is now, Lance.
Guillen’s problems, performance aside, were detrimental to the Angels, moreso than Olsen’s, performance aside, hurt the Marlins.
Olsen had an incident. Guillen was a continual problem.
The two different animals here are the people involved. Guillen was a proven hot head… but the Mariners did their homework and found that Guillen had matured.
They were clearly right. They just need to see similar potential with Olsen.
The only thing they have to avoid with him the disaster, which is ongoing DUI/drinking/law issues… if that is quite possible, you have to pass, even if he’s FREE.
When do you expect the Mariners to start hiring the coaches? I’m guessing that they’ve interviewed most of the candidates by now.
Do you think the Mariners should look at Kaz Matsui or Kosuke Fukudome this offseason?
Matsui is a guy who could get on base and is a very good defensive player who would be an upgrade over Lopez, who could be traded in a package for pitching. Kosuke Fukudome seems ideal to me because hes a left-handed power hitting right fielder who has a great arm out in right. A lineup of Ichiro, Matsui, Beltre, Kosuke Fukudome, Ibanez, Johjima, Sexson, Vidro, YuBet sounds very promising.
Larry LaRue lists these guys as the “frontrunners” for the open coaching positions:
• Jim Riggleman, bench coach.
• Mel Stottlemyre, pitching coach
• Larry Bowa, third base coach
• Norm Charlton, bullpen coach
• Eddie Rodriguez, first base coach
If they hire Stottlemyre, it’s a total joke.
Rodriguez spent this past season as the skipper of the West Tenn D Jaxx.
Charlton I’d be ok with.
I did a little reading up on Stottlemyre and what I found is his style isn’t for power pitches.
Direct quote from a Yankees site: “Who succeeded under Stottlemyer? Pettitte did. Cone did. Wells did. Mussina has. Duque did. Lieber sort of did. Who got worse under Stottlemyer? Clemens, Johnson and Vazquez. I think we can dismiss Brown, Contreras, and Weaver for other reasons.”
Keep in mind it’s just one guys opinion and what he’s seen.
If the M’s are trying to fix Felix, Mel might not be the answer.
#53 Doc Gooden did very well under Stots im pretty sure he was a fine power pitcher wasnt he?I kind of laugh how people say he isnt very good if you look alot of teams he was one of the coaches on won world series are played in the playoffs this could be coincedence but i doubt it.The one point also that everyone misses is Felix isnt broke he and no other young pitcher can live up to all the hype that the media throws at these guys in todays world.He won 14 damn games at 21 years old if thats broke i will take 5 broke ones any day of the week please.
I don’t think Stottlemyre is a total joke. Based on what? You know how he prepares pitchers for games? I sure don’t.
My preference would be Mazzone would be my first pick, followed by Colborn. But, I don’t think Mel is the worse choice either.
And as for the M’s giving up on Bazardo, that’s not entirely accurate. The M’s ran out of options on him, I do believe, which limited what they could do. And, considering how badly he got rocked in his September call-up, it would have been hard to justify a spot on the 40-man roster.
Interesting question…..if Mazzone is the guy, do you keep HoRam to see if he can get him back on track, pitching like he did under Mazzone?
55 - Horam still sucked under Mazzone, I really don’t see any point of his Major League career where he had a substantial amount of success over an adequate amount of time. I’ve watched the Braves almost as much as the Mariners for over a decade and I don’t ever recall Horacio ever being even marginally adequate.
But I do agree that if Mazzone was willing to come here, then he would be my first choice also.
Jason, why do you think Stottlemyre would be a joke?
Stottlemyre retired for reasons beyond his baseball abilities.
You want your pitching coach taking off in the middle of the year because he’s not healthy?
Jason, my point at #48, was simply that Jose Guillen was not a good example to use. Where neither trouble with the law, or causing trouble in the clubhouse, is a good thing, as both manifest serious character flaws, usually when a player is causing clubhouse trouble he isn’t breaking any legal laws, and as such, those occurance are usually easier to get over.
Although, I agree with you, that when they cannot be gotten over they can/will cause much bigger problems within the team that getting in trouble with the law can (although, I’ve read where Julio Mateo’s legal problems were beginning to cause some division within the Mariners).
Yes, Guillen has matured, but he reached 30 before it happen. In the meantime he got quite the reputation, although to my knowledge he was also no problem in his two years at Washington. I wonder how much of it was simply that Guillen and Scioscia mixed like water and gas. Olsen is 23. If his problems, which seem to be both legal AND clubhouse related, are a reflection of deeper issues, than this might not be a good time to acquire him. That’s my thinking on him, anyway.
As to my point regarding comparing Guillen and Olsen, I just don’t believe it’s a good comparison. I’m fine with whether you agree or disagree with my reasoning.
BTW, Jason, I’m not sure what you were saying in the final sentence of comment #49. There may be a typo or two there. It almost read like at the end of the comment you were nearly agreeing with me, which I’m sure you weren’t.
Jason, don’t you think they’d check Mel’s health, before they’d take him on as a coach? It’s not like they’re unaware of the situation. And, that being said, if he is healthy, why should he be excluded? Because you fear relaps?
The dude voluntarily walked away from the game already because of his age and health concerns.
I want no part of the risk.
Plus, he’s never made mediocre pitchers better than they were before… He’s never had success working with pitchers that didn’t possess the gifts to be at least what they ended up being.
I don’t see anything on his resume that makes him all that attractive to the Mariners.
The Mariners have to be thinking about Felix, and then they have to be thinking about Chris Tillman, Juan Ramirez and company. In less than 2-3 years, those guys will be on the brink of the bigs and have to be guided properly and taught the right way.
Would Mel even be here in two years or would they AGAIN be changing pitching coaches?
Why should we believe that he’d even be good with the kids?
From what I know of Colborn, Mazzone and even Kranitz, they all have RECENT backgrounds working with young pitchers as well as the veteran.
Sorry. I’m meant my comment #47, your comment #48.
Mazzone would work for me.
Stots didnt walk away Goerge made it look that way from my sources and he got paid to keep his mouth shut!..The giuy is a winner Slaten who they hired tonight is good but hasnt proven that he is a winner yet other then the Itchiro signing,,lol
cujo, you’re mixing up your Jims. Slaton had nothing to do with Ichiro. That was Colburn, who was the M’s Pacific rim scout. Your “sources” should have told you that.
Interesting point on Slaton. IIRC, he was the first and only first round pick of the Seattle PILOTS, and also IIRC, the only person who played in the Pilots organazation (he eventually made it to the Brewers) while being on the coaching staff of the Mariners (Diego Segui was the only person who played for both).
Just a bit of trivia there.
Jason, so is the Slaton hiring pretty much a done deal or is there a chance this will fall through? It seems as though if they wanted him from the start then they wouldn’t have fired him, they would have just promoted him. Why is it that the Mariners always screw this kind of thing up? Oh well, this whole staff will hopefully be gone next year (I love the M’s, but this year was a fluke, and I’d rather see them flounder because then hopefully the mass front office overhaul that was so badly need can happen). Why did they pass on Colburn, Kranitz and Mazzone? I mean, mabye Mazzone didn’t want to come here, but it appeared that Colburn and Kranitz did. Man, the Mariners frustrate me to no end.
Is colbrum the man to fix felix , washburn and company. Or shall i say can he do it?
Some of you guys need to get off your high horses. If you think having a crappy year solves anything, you’re wrong….period. The idea that they’re going to throw out the entire front office is FANTASY crap. And, even if they do, what makes you think they’re going to get anyone better? As we learned with Mike Hargrove……ANYONE ELSE is NOT better.
So, lets stop with the ill wishes in the HOPE that you get some magical result.
Wish them well and leave it at that. There is NO fix in losing.
Where is this report that they hired Slaton?
Why are you asking me?
I’m just sharing what one source is telling me.
When the factual deal is made, it’ll be everywhere. But the word on the street is that Slaton is their guy, and It sounds to me like the only thing that kills it is Mazzone or more interest from Kranitz.
I still keep thinking Slaton gets the coordinators job instead, which may go to Dwight Bernard if they don’t fill it with a veteran.
I was asking cujo about his statement that they hired Slaton…..which I can’t find anywhere.
As for Slaton, I have no problem with him. I thought he did a great job at Tacoma preparing the kids to be ready to be major league pitchers. He didn’t just show them the mechanics of pitching, but taugh them the stuff that sits in their heads.
I meant to say colburn my mistake.
Has Colborn been hired?
I think this is where the confusion is…
Slaton and Colborn have the same agent, I was just informed, and now two separate people are telling me that Slaton indeed is NOT the hire, and that Colborn is the only candidate still in the city of Seattle as we speak.
Kranitz was hired by the O’s, replacing Mazzone, so if Mazzone won’t come west, Colborn is not a bad option.
Jason, is he “responsible” for Ichiro and Johjima?
He developed solid, meaningful relationships in the process in Japan, yes.
Colborn is a good hire for many reason beyond his pitching wisdom.
If Colborn is the guy.
Jason, was Iishi just not the pitcher people expected he would become. I recall him always having control problems. I ask this because Colborn was in the middle of that back then. IIRC, Colborn was the