Before I start ‘a rantin’, let me preface the ensuing piece with the following thoughts:
1. I subscribe to the theory that a baseball manager has to believe in his own abilities, as well as everyone else’s around him. Players, coaches, scouts - and the GM.
2. I also believe that one of the pre-requisite talents of a manager is the ability to put the best players on the field as much as possible, while simultaneously putting said players in the best positions to succeed, both individually and as a group.
3. If a manager isn’t going to fight for what he believes in, even if that means heated disagreements with players, coaches and even the general manager, he isn’t worth a damn and I don’t want him anywhere near my baseball team.
There are two kinds of loyalty in the game of baseball when it comes to a manager and the way he runs his team. One is vastly different than the other.
The first kind is present when a skipper continues to go to the well with a proven veteran through all of the thick and thin of the tough times and sub par performances.
The second is when the manager’s love goes blind and his affinity for the veteran he knows so well gets in the way of the truth right in front of him. That truth is typically put forth in the form of a young, yet unproven talent that is more capable than the incumbent.
This is when that loyalty might be best defined by the words stubborn, mulish or just downright stupid.
Whichever the better term, John McLaren has no business at the helm of a Major League Baseball team. Not if he’s the manager we watched for the final three months of this season, and there’s no reason to believe he’d be any better simply because he began the season as the man in charge. He may very well be different, but probably not better.
McLaren has always had the reputation as a good baseball man; all the wiser, loved by all who have ever worked for and with him and a soul burning with the desire to win - a fire resembling that of ‘Ol Sweet Lou.
But all the evidence - yes Dave, I actually said evidence – shows that McLaren is missing at least one ingredient in what makes a field manager good at what he does.
For lack of a better word, we’ll call it crust. Mike Scoscia has it. Ozzie Guillen has it. Jim Leyland has it. Lou Piniella sure has it, and I don’t think he got his on ebay.
McLaren just doesn’t have it. He lacks the ability to look beyond what he KNOWS MIGHT BE, to consider what else is possible.
He’s seen Raul Ibanez hit the ball well. He’s watched Richie Sexson mash five homers in a week. He’s witnessed, time and time again, but certainly not without failure, the veteran player get the job done.
What he’s never seen, because nobody has ever seen it, is Adam Jones hit the ball consistently in the big leagues. And apparently, why nobody ever seen that matters none.
So instead of handing regular playing time to one of the four best players in the entire organization, McLaren chooses experience.
And while he’s doing so, every other good team in the game is choosing the best players. Contenders all over baseball, in both leagues, are using inexperienced players on a regular basis, and are better for it.
And not just clubs who have no choice.
The Arizona Diamondbacks are playing 19-year-old Justin Upton three days a week, sometimes four. Not because they are short on outfielders, they are anything but that.
The Yankees are relying on three rookie pitchers in Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy, and are a better team for it.
The Red Sox are leaning on Pedroia, Ellsbury and to a lesser extent, Buchholz, and are clearly a better team with those three than without.
While
Now, comparing Jones’ situation in
The Diamondbacks let hometown hero Luis Gonzalez walk so they could use Carlos Quentin, Chris Young, and eventually Justin Upton in the outfield.
Gonzalez went to LA, where the Dodgers have curbed his playing time in order to get Matt Kemp regular play. Kemp entered 2007 with similar long-term expectations as Jones and with little more big-league experience.
The Yankees pulled Mike Mussina out of the rotation in August so they could give starts to Ian Kennedy, a 2006 draft pick.
The Angels canned Shea Hillenbrand because Casey Kotchman and Kendry Morales were better options.
Good organizations are giving their ML-ready talents a chance to play significant roles – in a pennant race. The Mariners have made Jones, one of the top 10 prospects in all of baseball according to just about everyone who has a clue, a fourth outfielder on a team desperate to break losing streaks, score more runs and prevent more runs from scoring as they play behind a mediocre pitching staff.
If Adam Jones was a New York Mets prospect, he’d be playing. Maybe not starting every day, but he’d be getting at least two starts a week, probably three or more.
Want proof? Lastings Milledge is the Mets’ version of Adam Jones, and he’s getting 22 plate appearances a week. Jones is averaging four and a half a week. Case closed.
While McLaren isn’t the only one to blame for his handling of Jones, and other younger more capable talents being wasted away on the bench or in the minors while overpaid veterans mire away in mediocrity, he is the one most responsible. He fills out the lineup card.
If McLaren wanted to start Jeff Clement in center field and Yuniesky Betancourt behind the plate, that’s what would happen, or so you’d hope. He’s the skipper, you want him doing what he wants, when he wants. He’s your leader, right?
Not McLaren. He’s not a leader in that manner. He’s just everybody’s best friend.
I was told that by someone who knows John fairly well and has been in the game, and in the same organization as McLaren, for decades. I didn’t buy it at first, because others were telling me how into the youth of the farm system McLaren has always been.
But it couldn’t be more clear after McLaren’s first half-season as a Major League manager. And apparently, McLaren is only into the kids when his own job is not on the line. Sounds like Lou Piniella in that regard.
But Lou is very different than McLaren in many ways. Piniella would tell his GM off if questioned about why he made a particular decision. He’d handle his team the way he wanted to handle them, or he wouldn’t manage that team at all.
I understand McLaren was thrust into the role at mid-season and didn’t have a chance to establish his own ways of doing things, but that doesn’t excuse his inability to simply put the best players on the field every day.
The decision-makers in the Seattle Mariners organization have a big choice to make about the manager’s position beyond 2007.
And if they plan on building upon a decent showing this season, the right decision is to look elsewhere for a field general.
Because John McLaren is a bench coach.
——————————————————————————————————————————–
GM Bill Bavasi probably doesn’t deserve to remain at the helm of the Seattle Mariners, just as McLaren should be sent packing as the club’s skipper, but it still might be in the Mariners’ best interest to bring him back.
Sure, the ballclub was better this year, maybe as much as 10 wins better, but in four seasons now, Bavasi’s mistakes far outweigh the good moves he’s made and in the end it’s costing the organization more than $110 million to field a team that isn’t good enough to make the postseason in any given year.
If this was year two, fine. But it’s year four, going into year five, and this roster still has almost as many holes as the Texas Rangers.
Bavasi has his positives and negatives, like every GM.
The Good
3. The Farm System
While there are several who disagree with how aggressive the club has been with their top prospects, Bavasi is big on growing your own and in this day and age, teams must produce their own talent or they are destined to become the Baltimore Orioles.
2. Risk Taking
Bavasi is certainly willing to take risks, and in many ways that is a great attribute to have as the GM of a baseball team. With the free agent market so out of whack, teams often are forced to trade away young players in order to get better. His predecessor wasn’t willing to do so, but Bavasi certainly is.
3. Trust
Bavasi does one thing that is critically important for general managers in their attempts to make deals to improve their rosters – listen to and trust their scouts. If A scout swears up and down about a player and Bavasi and the rest of the execs are iffy on him, Bill is likely to give his scout the benefit of the doubt and go get that player based on the scout’s evaluation.
Not all GMs are like that and it does come back to bite them as it’s tough to make decisions when only one opinion counts for anything.
The Bad
1. Surroundings
Bavasi hasn’t exactly surrounded himself with the best consultants and assistants. Lee Pelekoudas serves a valuable purpose, but scouting isn’t one of his strong suits, and while Bob Fontaine is fantastic, Dan Evans and John Boles do not have the track record of two guys that should be leaned upon – and they are, over and over. See: Rafael Soriano for Horacio Ramirez.
2. Too Aggressive?
At times it seems as if Bavasi succumbs to the pressure of trying to keep his job and is overly aggressive in getting a deal done. Bringing in Ramirez in exchange for Soriano sure seemed like a rush job in order to make sure he didn’t come up empty last winter. The club desperately needed a starting pitcher, but making a deal just to make one isn’t the way to go about things in Major League Baseball. Bavasi has done this on more than one occasion – see: Jarrod Washburn, Chris Reitsma and Asdrubal Cabrera/Shin-soo Choo for Ben Broussard/Eduardo Perez.
3. He’s Still Doing It…
Bavasi is still on a one-year prove-your-worth contract in which he’s apt to make moves based on winning in 2008, no matter the cost. This scares me, and should scare fans of not only Wladimir Balentien, but Jeff Clement, Chris Tillman and even Adam Jones.
It’s not the right time to overpay for mediocre pitching, and it’s never a good time to do so with young promising talent.
Bavasi hasn’t necessarily earned the right at another year, but, as we have just established, it’s not good business to make a change simply to make a change. If there is a clear cut upgrade available that the Mariners feel they have a great chance to hire, they should do so.
Otherwise, it’s probably a good idea to bring Bill back for another year.
Or, it might just be a better idea to have a worse GM, but one who won’t be making moves to save his job.
But in my opinion, I don’t think Bavasi is heading into this offseason with the same pressure he had a year ago.
Something to think about.
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This is why I hate being a Mariners fan. Because I have very little hope in the future because there are incompetent people in charge, they’ll find a way to screw it up.
Ok, which one stumped for Ramirez, Evans or Pelekoudas? And do you have their addresses?
You have proof that Bavasi’s trying to save his job? I’ve heard that said, but where, other than pure speculation, is it any more than speculation?
I think Bill has been around baseball enough to know that you don’t operate that way. So what, he gets fired? You don’t think he’ll find another job paying nearly as much? He, moreso than most people, KNOWS you’re hired to be fired. All GM’s and managers are. He WILL be fired at some point.
You don’t think winning is important to the franchise, not just Bill and his job? You don’t think it improves the outlook for the players going into next season, to know they were in the hunt up to the last days, especially after the previous three seasons? You don’t think it helps to sell Seattle to free agents in the off-season, that they are a team on the rise? Maybe, there’s a whole lot more than the simplistic belief that he’s trying to save his job.
I’m all for giving Adam Jones playing time, but I don’t see how giving him more playing time does anything other than giving him more playing time. He likely wouldn’t have changed any outcomes. And, losing a few at bats at the end of the season, just isn’t enough to get me upset. He’ll be starting somewhere next season, full-time. Why does it have to be today? Yeah, I’d have loved to see him play more, but that’s for my selfish reasons….not because I think it’s important.
And, I’m not going to be upset by the Morrow thing. Personally, I believe it’s going to be the best thing for him, in the end. Yes, he loses development of his lesser pitches. But, he gains in knowing why he needs them. Too many kids with great fastballs think that’s all they need to survive. They can get away with that all the way up to AAA. But, Brandon KNOWS now, that his best fastball can be turned around if it’s not in the right spot. So, with any luck, he takes that to the minors next season and KNOWS what he has to do to be successful. I don’t see it as much different than bringing up a kid from AAA who has to learn the same lesson. At least Brandon now knows he CAN get out Major League hitters….if he makes the proper pitch selection.
The franchise won’t crumble to the ground if Bavasi isn’t back. But, the idea that ANY change will be better, just isn’t so.
“You have proof that Bavasi’s trying to save his job? I’ve heard that said, but where, other than pure speculation, is it any more than speculation?”
I do.
So if you would like your last comment deleted so you can start over, let me know.
But it’s fact.
Wow, Edtrack chimes in with another “I’m Outraged!” post backing up the front office again. Never saw that one coming.
Ed, the issue here is Bavasi putting short term goals ahead of long term goals. GM’s trying to save their jobs do this. GM’s that have job security - or, more importantly, the integrity to put the team ahead of their own personal goals - focus more on the long term.
Playing Adam Jones now is focusing on the long term, because he is likely to be a cornerstone player in a few years. Developing Morrow as a starter is in the teams best interest, because starters are far more valuable than relievers. The fact that Bavasi delayed Morrow’s progress to cover up for his own HUGE error in judgement (Soriano for Ho) is just salt in the wound. Bavasi’s desperation moves were VERY VERY clear last offseason. The Ramirez trade especially. These are the types of things a GM does when he is looking out for number one.
Finally, there are a few factually inaccurate comments in your post. I usually don’t bother to point things like this out, but you do this all the time.
First, all GM’s and managers don’t get fired. In fact, our last GM and our last manager didn’t get fired. GM’s don’t get canned often at all. Most half decent GMs last several years at least, and the better than average ones most often step down when they do leave. Managers do get fired more often, but most teams won’t scapegoat a GM. That person is too pivotal to the organization, and firing that guy is basically announcing that the team isn’t being run properly.
Second, winning a few more games won’t likely have a big effect on the psyche of the guys on the team, and it certainly doesn’t mean much in free agency. Don’t you think the players realize that they are out of it? Give them some credit. They aren’t stupid. And free agents go where the money is 99% of the time. Sure, there are a few guys, especially older players, who will limit their view to contenders. But a few extra wins after the club is out of contention isn’t going to be a back breaker. Players around the league also aren’t stupid. They know what is up with this team. The most important thing is dollars. The M’s are officially out of the cellar, they just need to spend wisely.
Third, I would like to point out the HUGE contradiction about your point that letting Jones play isn’t important, but getting Morrow ML experience is. Why is it important for Morrow, and not for Jones? In the opinion of pretty much everyone, it makes a lot more sense to let a ML ready player get some ABs at the end of the season, while it is stupid to take a top starter project (the fifth overall pick, who the team invested millions of dollars to sign), and promote him directly to the ML’s as a reliever after he only has a few innings of pro experience. The reason this all when down the way it did is because Bavasi isn’t looking to the future. Plain and simple.
And, finally, who is to say that there aren’t better options out there than Bavasi. Nobody is arguing that the M’s should replace Bavasi with any warm body. Off the top of my head, guys like Logan White, Chris Antonetti, and Kim Ng are all up and coming candidates who are ready to be big league GMs. If the M’s value experience, Terry Ryan just quit and Walt Jocketty has been rumored to be a candidate to move. Any of these people would be upgrades over Bavasi.
The M’s didn’t pick a very good GM a few years back. Sure, there are worse guys out there. But, when you have a chance to upgrade, you should do it. Especially with a position as important as GM.
Logan White,Dan Jennings,Jack Zurensick are the three top names for me these guys have proven they no players by there drafts Anottntti is a made up Pete Gammons special and Kim well she is popular but what has she done that meens anything?Best evaluaters that are scouts ive heard these 4 names consistenly Dave Engle Baltimore,Jerry Dipoto Dbacks,Charlie Kerfeld Phillies,Pete Vukavich Pirates all 4 ex Major League players that have been in the fire why arent they good enough to be a gm?Atleast they understand what its like to be in the fire dont they?I dont know if any of these 4 have even gone to college but i think by what i hear they know the baseball buisness.I guess the baseball buisness thinks ex baseball players are dumb but i wonder if the owners might actually be stupid by the way they chose people to run million dollar companys who havent ever put on a jock strap? Just one mans thoughts what do you guys think>?
Most of us know who Logan White is and some of us know about Dan Jennings, who is in Florida right now, but in case cujo’s suggestion of Jack Zduriencik doesn’t ring a bell for anyone, let me help.
He’s among the few mostly responsible for the great youth of the Milwaukee Brewers.
And let me add a few names to that group.
Jed Hoyer, the Red Sox asst. gm, as well as Tony LaCava, the Director of Player Personnel for the Blue Jays.
I spoke to one former scout who knows LaCava pretty well and he recommends him very highly. Says he’sthe total package.
Re:Cujo
I’ve heard that Engle, Kerfeld and Vukavich have good reputations, but that DiPoto lacks a bit of a track record. That’s not my statement, I don’tknow jack about any of the above names, except what people in the game tell me.
As for the hiring practices, it’s clear that the vast majority of GM hires are all about who ya know and how unpolitical the hire would be.
Teams wants a mouthpiece to go along with someone who can manage a front office and sign off on the right deals.
Notice that the best mouthpiece types - Bowden, Bavasi, Sabean, Flanagan, etc, usually really don’t do that well in the end, and the best GMs in the game - Ryan, Beane, Towers, Jocketty, Schuerholz, Dombrowski, et al, aren’t great at taking on the mouthpiece role for the ownership. They get the job done, but smooth talking isn’t their thing.
There are exceptions, such as JP Riccardo, Ned Colleti, Ken williams, Omar Minaya… but in general, actions speak louder than words.
If Bavasi were to leave for what ever reason, does that mean that Fontaine would leave too? That would be a disappointment.
Yeah, Slack, I think that’s pretty much a given.
But, honestly, while Fontaine’s very solid, he’s not the one that should get the most kudos for building the M’s youth. He’s built a better farm system than the previous regime did, sure. But going from getting nothing out of the draft to even having an average draft is going to make ANY drafting executive look good. I’m not knocking Fontaine, really — he’s a solid drafting exec. But he’s not irreplacable.
Honestly, I think Engle (the international scouting director for the M’s) would be a much much much bigger loss for the M’s. Look at the current injection of youth and talent — Lopez, YuBet, Felix, RR-S, and to a certain extent Ichiro and Johjima. Putz, Jones, EOF and Feier were guys drafted before Fontaine took over. Sherrill was an Indy leaguer brought in by Kerfeld (when he was still an M’s scout). Certainly Morrow, Clement, and some of the other highly-rated recently-drafted prospects in our system are promising, but the bulk of the talent in the M’s organization has been filled in by international signings. Yes, the M’s punted the draft way too much under the previous regime (Gillick), but they certainly made up for it with their investment in international players…
I like the farm system now, and I like what Fontaine has done. With that cleared away, how stable is the player development system right now?
Jason, you have talked about how a lot more money and effort has been emphasized on the farm and scouting during Bavasi’s tenure. Is that his preference, or is it an organizational philosophy now? I do recall Lincoln and Armstrong talking earlier this year to the press about how they “now” value the farm more than in years past.
I would argue that if the organizational philosophy is to invest in the farm/player development/scouting system, then we wouldn’t regress at all when a new GM takes over - since that GM would be hired with clear expectation to maintain the current system in place, and improve on it.
So do we know if Lincoln and Armstrong are sold on player development?
That’s both Bavasi’s preference and the organization’s way these days. But Bavasi’s influence is the reason.
Jason, you’re spot on. McLaren looks lost in those postgame interviews. The way AJ has been handled makes no sense. For me, Bavasi can stay. I actually like the fact that he’s a gunslinger. He’s more exciting to monitor than Gillick. Will the ownership show some patience and allow Bavasi to make the RIGHT moves, rather than making moves to save his own ass?? Gosh, I hope so…
I think you are right, Coug, the suits have to sit back and relax and let Bavasi make the right moves, rather than what might make the team better solely in 2008.
There’s a delicate balance in there, and whether Bavasi can find it or not is still yet to be determined. but he can’t do it with his job constantly on the line.
But he hasn’t really earned the right to stay, has he?
I guess that depends on how much you believe he’s been restricted by Lincoln in what exact moves he’s allowed to make and the entire philosophy behind them.
Right to stay?
I can’t speak for the Front Office, but I’m pretty sure they look at Bavasi’s tenure and see that they improved each year since 2004 based on win totals.
It seems this team is results driven, and winning more games each year is a result. Another result is that the farm system is getting more publicity, and they have prospects being mentioned by other media as targets. Another result is that Ichiro decided to stay.
I would argue that Lincoln and Armstrong probably see Bavasi as successful - with flaws - but still deserving of a chance to improve.
If this team is out of the race again by late August next year, then I would see the Lincoln and Armstrong figure out that Bavasi has “peaked” as much as he ever will.
I also seriously doubt Lincoln and Armstrong consider anything that they do as limiting Bavasi.
No, they both know they have “guided” the transactions.
If so, then I think they are strong supporters of Bavasi. After all, they succeed (in their minds) with him.
When do we get to hear from Lincoln and Armstrong, when we are mathematically eliminated? Season over? After the World Series?
Are there any Japanese players that are free agents that are considering coming over to America? Are there any players that might be posted that would interest the Mariners?
eknpdx,
They are to an extent, because he’ll take the hit for their idiocy, which he has done much of. Though he shares the blame himself.
I also seriously doubt Lincoln and Armstrong consider anything that they do as limiting Bavasi.
No, they both know they have “guided” the transactions.
Those aren’t mutually contradictory statements, you know…
It’s nice to see Bazardo pitch 7 scorless tonight. Who did we get for him? A guy named Frazier? Wow. Seriously, is Bavasi this bad?
The TRADE itself isn’t the problem, smitty, it’s the fact that it got that far.
Getting Bazardo for Villone was a great get. But waiting until Bazardo had to be traded or cleared thru waivers because of his options status is the issue.
At that point, you rarely get anything for such players.
I mean, trading Bazardo for Frazier was not a net gain by any stretch for the M’s. But getting De la Cruz for Carvajal was.
What is De LA cruz A FAT RELIEVER AT BEST I WOULD SAY.Is Bazardo better then that who knows but we just keep giving away guy who show up on other teams with winning records and that concerns me about are evaluaters that Bumbling Bill brought in.wE HAVE RAN EVERY GUY THAT WAS FROM THE PAST REGIME THRU WAIVERS AND WE HAVE FIRED EVERY GUY bENNY lOOPER HIRED EXCEPT FOR dARREN bROWN AND IM SURE HE IS NEXT.We had a decewnt minor leauge system before Bavasi got here and we will be crippled when he leaves because he pushes to much for kids who need massaging as kids.
I hear people saying we like the farm system better now then before ?We didnt like Nags are Travis are Mads are Thorton?How about Ryan C?So we thi nk Butler and others will be better?Time will tell but ive been reading Jasons stuff since prospecters inside and you know what we had better prospects at higher levels then and most of them crapped on them selves are werent good enough to play at the major league level…Just the facts Danno thats all i ask!
Facts? You don’t want facts, you want rants.
Prospects are risks, there is no doubt about that. And, unfortunately, the M’s have had a horrible run of luck with some of the names you mentioned.
And, those guys were mostly products before Gillick. It wasn’t the lack of a few top prospects that concerned me, it was a HUGE lack of overall depth. Gillick and company had miserable turn around on mid level prospects. And yes, Tillman and Butler are much better prospects than Nags and company, that early in their careers.
And again, trying to tie Bavasi’s success on what happened previous to him, is sad. It’s like saying, “It rained this week, so it will rain all weeks after that.”
Prospects are always a risk…..ALWAYS. Even as good as Jones appears to be, he too, could flop. The best a team can do is give itself a chance….and you do that by stocking your farm system with the best kids possible.
How about Engle where did he come from Bavasi..NO! Gillick yes..Butler and and Tillmans numbers dont even sniff Nagottes at the sam age ED,,,Yes prospects are a risk but so are the horrible free agent sings Bumbling Bill has had since we hired him.The guy blows as a GM thats just the facts he has gotten more then a fair shake hear and has done nothing he keeps signing Spiezio ,Aurillia and others for large money and we end up in 2nd are 3rd place i thin k we suxx for having the 4th highest payrole in the majors im sure that Howard are Chucks are even Gillicks problems according to you Ed?
I’d actually disagree on that Nags v. Tillman argument.
Nageotte was 22 in Double-A and 21 in High A ball… He did lead the Midwest league in Ks at age 20 but Tillman was a year younger in that league and even showed he can pitch at a high level in the Cal League at 19.
You can argue that Nageotte’s numbers were better at 20 than Tillman’s at 19, sure. But to say Tillman’s numbers aren’t even close probably is not accurate.
cujo, can you possibly stop making everything personal?
So, you saying Gillick isn’t responsible for leaving Bavasi an aging team with large financial commitments? Are you saing that Gillick’s farm system was good enough that Bavasi didn’t have to go outside of the organization to fill holes?
That’s the mess Gillick left, just like he did in Toronto and Baltimore. He was the right guy for the job at the time…..but he came at a cost to the organization.
Payroll isn’t the answer. Ask the Blue Jays just how well spending has worked out for them. If it wasn’t for the Yankee farm system, they wouldn’t be in the playoffs. So, having money isn’t a guarantee of anything, other than you have more to spend.
I have no problem losing the entire FO. But, if anyone thinks that in itself will solve all the ills……then you’re fooling yourself. If it was that simple, all teams would swap out their FO at the sniff of a losing season.
You can find a clear-cut choice to replace Bavasi, I’m fine with it. If we’re gonna play another “bring in fresh blood” tenure, I’d rather not.
Ultimately, I think the best thing for the organization would be to move Bavasi into Chuck or Howie’s role…..but that’s almost as likely as it raining $100 bills.
OK not close but not as good?Allways remember what i said they are all prospects and between blowouts and other things alot of stuff happens
The difference between the farm system in 2003, for example, and the farm system today is that the club has more depth in the area of impact talent.
The only two advantages that 2003 has is they were deeper overall, and had a few more arms in the upper levels.
But what’s great about this debate is that we can deal with facts about the 2003 group. Nageotte, Blackley, Johnson, Anderson, Christianson, Thornton, Madritch, Lopez… we know what they turned out to be for the most part, though the jury is still out on Jose.
We don’t know what will become of Jones, Balentien, Clement, Tillman, Butler, Ramirez, Triunfel… and chances that NONE of them pan out is so slim it’snot even worth talking about.
The farm system is better now than it was in 2003, and it’s really not close.
But Gillick’s job wasn’t to stock the farm system. The Mariners were in dire need of success at the big-league level, that’s what the suits asked Gillick to do and he went out and did it, just like he always does.
The Mariners were never as good before Gillick as they were with him, and haven’t been nearly as good after, and that isn’t solely because he left the farm system bare. It’s been four years and the team still isn’t a solid, balanced team that other clubs fear will challenge for the division title in 2008.
Speaking of Gillick, he says he’s retiring after his contract in Philly is up.
Jason, was there ever a problem in the advance scouting department on the MLB level with the Mariners?
I recall a discussion back in 2001 where NYY had demonstrated their muscle in the scouting field by coming up with the plan to shut down the M’s offense. And that the M’s scouting did nothing to help the team.
Jason, any truth to the LaRussa to Seattle rumors?? He would be a major upgrade to the manager position.
Gee, unbelievable bad string of fortune with Nageotte, Blackley, and especially Anderson. Or is it? Might there have been anything specifically the Mariners were doing in the farm to hurt their pitchers development? Possibly like letting them throw too many breaking balls while their arms were still developing?
I remember Nageotte had one of the sicker sliders I had ever seen when he was first called up, like Bondermans when he is real sharp. I also know to throw a pitch with that kind of spin and tilt on it is tremendously tough on the arm. Did the Ms let him throw too many of these at a young age? And what happened with Anderson?
Has the org at all changed its philosophy in how we raise these kids?
Jason,
In your opinion, did Bavasi make a mistake by adding both Clement and R. Johnson to the 40 man roster…especially since that neither has played? - 5 AB’s in my opinion is not playing, if anyone wants to nitpick.
How much do you think this will hurt Bavasi / Mariners in the off-season, with the reduced flexibility?
Walrus,
No. Adding them to the 40-man is only a bad thing if it’s too early for them, and it’s really not. In three years, when both run out of options, they will either be 25-man mainstays, or players you don’t need anyways.
baseballman,
There could be, and there could be something to Jocketty coming, too, with or without Larussa.
ek,
Yeah, there was talk that the M’s advance scouting were outscouted in 2000 and 2001 versus the Yankees, but the real truth is that the Yankees were just much better.
Bazardo pitched 7 scoreless? for who detroit? thats pretty sick…haha. Pretty standard for a young pitcher who nobodies seen before to go in and have a good outing though.
The one that leaves sort of a bad taste in my mouth is the A. Cabrera/Perez deal. Cant wait to see him suit up against the Ms in the double header today though. Havent seen him much. Just a highlight of him taking one yard to the opposite alley in Cleveland.
A slick fielding, switch hitter at second base?! Sounds like a nice player. Bill You Are KILLING Us with these moves.
One can only hope Jocketty and LaRussa are headed this way. The M’s are the right kind of team to assume. They have enough of their own assets on the ML club, and in the minors. They are on the verge of being very good.
I just don’t want to watch a full year of McLaren.
Dont worry people, not trying to overhype Cabrera. Havent even seen enough of him yet. But it was just a bad deal we didnt have to make.
I can even understand the Soriano/Ramirez deal more than this one. We actually thought we were getting a pretty good young left handed starter back.
This deal was just dumb. They probably thought they were set with Lopez and Betancourt. Even if you think that you dont go ahead and dumb deals anyways…unless you are pressured by your boss.
I am now switching out my prayers for Salcedo and replacing them with Jocketty/La Russa. Lets see if I can make this one happen (in no way have my Salcedo prayers failed yet, hah).
Boy, Ed, I couldn’t agree more. How ’bout that?
I too believe the M’s are ripe for the assuming, just as they were prior to the 2000 season.
With the right shrewd moves, they CAN catch the Angels on paper, and with any luck at all, they very well could gel together, get a few career or breakthrough years from players such as Lopez, Betancourt, Johjima, and of course, Felix.
Of course, without some big-time creativity, they could also take a rather large step backward.
We aren’t as far apart as you might think, Jason.
If Jockerty is available and they have a reasonable chance to get him…..and they don’t…..then they have failed.
I think Bavasi has a purpose in the organization. IMO, teams expect too much from one GM. In my perfect world, you’d have an overall GM of General Operations (Jockerty) and a GM of Organizational Infrastructure (Bavasi). I know they see that as a director level job, but in this day and age, it needs a person who’s got more power than a director.
Jockerty would be responsible for the on field product. Bavasi, responsible for everything under the developmental portion….including scouting.
There are so many business changes in the game, that it makes sense to start dividing them up into two separate business units.
IMHO, Chuck Armstrong’s position is a waste of money.
Jason, I dont know if you’ve said this already, but what are your honest thoughts on La Russa? Is he a manager that would favor veterans as much as McLaren and Hargrove? Looking at the Cards normal lineup, I dont really see many youngsters. But, I don’t know how good the Cards farm system is or if there ARE any young players that should be in the lineup.
Greg,
The M’s aren’t a rebuilding team. Hargrove’s first year here did exactly what you seem to want, spend a lot of time evaluating kids. But, that isn’t the current Mariners. Not many managers are going to make some of the wholesale swaps that some here expect. They aren’t given a charter to evaluate the farm system, they are there to win.
You may not agree that the M’s aren’t still rebuilding, but I’m sure the Mariners don’t see it that way.
I think LaRussa’s a numbers guy, so if the data he receives says that Jones is projected to outhit player X that is currently in the line-up, and he sees it as a weakness, he’d have no problem making a change. Tony is one of the first managers to use computer power to help his decision making. Hargrove and McLaren are more old school hands-on kind of guys.
So, thing might have been different with LaRussa, but they might not have.
Lets be clear about something. While it would have been nice to see Jones play more…..he wouldn’t have propelled them into the playoffs. Pitching failed, not defense or hitting.
We need to understand that our desires aren’t necessarily needs. I’d love to see rookies get every opportunity, but that’s not always in the team’s best interest.
Yuppers on the view of Mariners GM.
Yuppers on Jones not being the difference for a playoff spot.
But I think it’s more that its the viewpoint of the Mariners’ management that led to that playoff spot skittering away. Going after “proven vets” for the bullpen and using them. Not using Jones’ defense to shore up the outfield—and using him to spell regulars more.
Think a more adroit use of rookies (maximize their strong points, minimize their weaknesses) would have helped a lot; and that’s where a La Russa has demonstrated strengths.
It wouldn’t have helped enough, I’m afraid.
I don’t want McLaren back for many of the reasons you stated. Many times, he could have put Jones in left for Raul, in close games. If he wanted to keep Raul’s bat, he could have moved him to first and had Jones replace the slumping Sexson.
I don’t necessarily think Jones needed to play alot…..but he certainly should have seen playing time three times a week.
That’s not a Bavasi thing, it’s a McLaren thing.
I think if Hargrove had been here, they’d have avoided that bad skid. And, I don’t think he’d have use White/Parrish as much as McLaren. Hargrove seemed to be OK with they younger guys.
Mostly, I think McLaren didn’t have the faith of the players that Hargrove did. He wears a lot of emotion in the dugout. While some seem to like that, I think good managers have stone faces. Body language says alot, especially when you struggle.
Thanks, Edtrack.
Honestly, one of the best if not the best thing that would happen if La Russa comes here is Duncan would come to. Just think what he could do for Felix, and whoever the rookie is.
Jason, how much does the org pay attention to the call ups play at this time. For example, if Wlad does really well will that influance their deccision with Guillen, or are they hopping it just increasing his trade value? How does good or bad play effect guys like Wlad, Clement, Johnson, Morse, and I guess Jones?
wlad goes deep tonight!
this guy should play every game from here on out. see if can be the 4th outfielder. with ibanez in left one more year,jones could take right….
it would be nice to spend the guillen money on pitching. and i don’t mean just free agents(which is very thin). i could also include taking on salary in a trade.
a bit early…but here’s what rotoworld thinks about al lineups and moves for 08….
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/features/column.aspx?sport=MLB&columnid=2&articleid=29041
Rotoworld’s suggestions makes little sense. 2 out of Wlad, Clement and Lopez to get Noah Lowry, or Durham, that seems a bit crazy to me.
Noticed some Japanese free agents that could make the switch on Rotoworld’s website.
Any word on how good they are?
Greg,
LaRussa does lean heavily on vets, but when there is a kid that can play they get time.
The Cards haven’t had much of that of late, but Ankiel, Duncan, Molina, Pujols six years ago… they all got time as unproven players with good abilities.
I think it’s important to have a GM that likes the same thing, too.
I have a scouting report coming on Japanese starting pitcher Hiroki Kuroda, who might be someone the Mariners take a look at. He’s a free agent, too, so no posting fee.
Ya we need as much pitching as we can get. 2 new starters hopefully.
Is that guy any good per say at least “3 starter.
The one guy I have talked to about him says he’s about a No. 3 type…200 innings, above league average, might show flashes of dominance.
He’s not young, he’s 32, but a three or four year deal wouldn’t kill the Mariners on a guy like this. But they will have competition.
Isn’t ke called “Mr. Complete Game” in Japan?
Jason, in your write up of Kuroda would you rank him against some of the FA pitchers this offseason like Silva/Jennings/Lieber, and maybe the rumored trade targets like Lowry, etc?
Thanks
[...] Insider’s Jason Churchill had this to say about McLaren in a dissertation about why he must [...]
Chuch do you think Brian Roberts is a possibility, great fit fir this team, patient speedy lefty perfect for the two slot. Would a Sexson ( we cover 60%, costing the O’s only 6 mill), Lopez, and Sherrill get it done? Or is he an untouchable.
If I were Baltimore’s GM, nothing about that trade would excite me.
BTW…..Gillick is at it again…..grabbing TJ Bohn off waivers from the Braves. He seems to really have a love for former M’s farmhands. Guess he loves guys he picked.
Ed, they have a terrible pen and no power. Sexson for 6 million could be a steal, especially given his unlucky BABIP, one of the most unlucky in years. Their is potential for him to bounce back to previous form. Also Lopez is young and still has value. Sherrill has solid a lefty as there is. Maybe you throw in a Michael Saunders/Tony Butler prospect to get it done.
I dont see why Baltimore would trade away one of their three best players without filling one major hole with a long-term solution.
Unlucky BABIP for Sexson would imply that he actually hit the ball hard right at guys — it would not take into account the extraordinary amount or weak grounders and pop ups he hit …
Lopez isn’t a long term solution? I would think he has as much upside as Roberts if not more. The difference is the Mariners are much closer to making a run at the plaoffs then the O’s. Sherrill would help one of the worse bullpens in the league. And If and I know its a big if, Sexson bounces back, at 6 mill that would be a steal. Maybe you throw in prospect of their choice not named Triunfel, Tillman, Ramirez or Jones.
If he was a long term solution, why wouldn’t Seattle keep him then? It’s POSSIBLE that he is. But Roberts already is. Big difference.
Baltimore isn’t quite stupid enough to fall for that one.