Right-hander Jeff Weaver apparently threw the ball well today in a simulated game. So what, right? That’s what I thought.
But some comedy came from the piece at Mariners.com.
This is the first few paragraphs of the piece talking about Weaver, fresh with quotes from pitching coach Rafael Chaves and manager Mike Hargrove.
ANAHEIM — Jeff Weaver tossed a simulated shutout on Tuesday afternoon at Angel Stadium, and said he’s ready to return to the Mariners pitching staff.
The right-hander went through a four-inning, 68-pitch workout and was pleased with the results.
“I threw all my pitches and felt strong throughout,” he said. “I was getting after it pretty good the last two innings.”
Mariners pitching coach Rafael Chaves called the session “encouraging” and manager Mike Hargrove said, “He threw the ball well and his stuff was noticeably better.”
Nothing earth-shattering, right?
But this is the very next sentence in the story.
Willie Bloomquist and Jason Ellison handled the hitting duties.
If I would have been slurping down a chocolate shake at the time I was reading that, I would have drown in yummified flavored ice.  Maybe the key is to sneak Willie and Jason into opposing uniforms and have them hit at least half the time versus Weaver. Then, and maybe ONLY then might Weaver’s stuff appear effective versus “big-league hitters.”
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What a joke. Bloomquist and Ellison are far from the guys needed to test mettle.
Oh man…I can’t stop laughing…
Must. Clean up. Laptop. Keyboard.
If the mariners were smart they would send him to AAA for rehab. If he gets hit there then he should be just DFA.
“If the mariners were smart…”
Um ya…about that…
I want you to keep in mind we’re talking about the people who got Weaver and Ho. Ram in the first place.
Ya but they can`t be THAT dumb right?
Ho Ram is essentially Washburn at home and Weaver on the Road very odd splits.
I wonder how Sexson would do batting against Weaver?
Let’s be honest, would it have been any better if the Mariners messed up a real hitter’s timing by having him bat against Weaver?
Bedir, I’m assuming by “messed up” you mean “get used to hitting the crap out of terrible pitches the likes of which the individual hitter will never see again”?
In that case, i agree.
BTW, anyone else think the best way for the M’s to get there moneys worth from Weaver is to pay Texas to start him?
The M’s must be desperate to justify Weavers contract if they are still keeping him around like this.
According to the article in the TNT, John Moses was the imposing lefty bat in the simulated game line up.
#11 Theres only so much egg one GMs face can take and i think this misjudgement of talent would cover his whole bald head!I dont even think bumbling bill is dumb enough not to send him on a rehab …well let me reconsider that!
I dunno Cujo, Bill has a pretty substantial pate.
Aside from Guillen who has been respectable, almost ALL of Bavasi’s moves have either backfired or been outright terrible from the get-go.
Even Johjima and Ibanez could be considered accidental acquistions at best. Joh because he was Yamauchi’s pet project (You’ll remember that the Mariners weren’t looking for a catcher after ‘05 for God knows what reason?) and Ibanez was done as more of a PR move and the Mariners simply stumbled into his prime years.
Bavasi does not need to be back in ‘08.
Weaver had a decent stretch at the end of last season, but his career numbers show a guy that never clicked close to his supposed potential.
The fact that the M’s dumped that much money on the guy has never made sense to me. Weaver is a guy that is going to give up five runs a game when he is doing well. The only real answer to me is to DFA the guy, and write it off.
Yeah i agree Adam he hasnt made very many moves that have been werth a squat.Guillen has been respectable but we arent even a 1/3 of the way thru the season yet so i will hold judgement on this powder keg who has a history of blowing up.Joh was the bosses call and Raul was a good acquire the extension and his 1 hr is in question still.So you are right he does need to hit the bricks along with the manager and then we might have to rebuild and take a few lumps that we are allready taken and watch some of the kids grow.Jones,Ryan fier, Blad and a few others.
Re: Mark Lowe
Playing catch, not really stretching it out a whole lot, no pain from last session reported about 10 days ago.
ETA back on mound: Maybe mid-July
ETA in bigs? Depends on how well he responds to actually pitching. That injury is awfully nasty.
Thanks for the update on Lowe, Jason.
Jason, where is Triunfel?? He was lifted a couple days ago after being in the starting lineup, and hasnt played since
He’s banged up, but apparently it’s not that serious because as of today he was not on the 7-day disabled list.
Off Topic: Chris Tillman
Dear Mariners Player Development folks,
Good call putting a kid at a level he isn’t ready for… instead of letting Tillman have a solid season at Wisconsin you send the 19-year old to High Desert where his initial ERA is starting to look Weaver-esque. Tonight he lasted 2 innings before getting run.
Perhaps you could ask Blundering Bill Bavasi to pass the phone after he gets fleeced in yet another deal…you could asked the organization on the other line how exactly to develop minor league talent properly.
Kinda OT, but if you had Max Scherzer on your draft boards, take him off. He signed at the last minute with the D-Backs.
Looks like Weaver has refused to go out on a rehabilitation option. Kind of stupid in my opinion since he could really use the work. I imagine if he gets shelled as expected in his next couple of starts it will be DFA time.
Weaver can refuse all he wants, but the M’s aren’t legally required to follow his wishes on this one.
He can refuse an assignment to Triple-A, but has no recourse on the M’s in a rehab situation.
Once again, I’m with you three bagger. Maybe I shouldn’t care who the M’s draft because they’ll probably just rush him and stunt his development. The M’s seem to have a good record of doing that even though the jury is still out on that, I’ll admit that right away but Tui was rushed (I’m glad he’s doing great now!), Clement was rushed and the jury is still out on him, Morrow should be being groomed as a starter right now instead of being a set up man and Tillman is a 19 year old who so far is being lit up at High Desert when he should still be in Wisconsin. Yes, it’s only two games but I know most of the rest of you don’t like this move either and I think this move hold’s Tillman back more than anything. Maybe the M’s should draft Casey Weathers so he can get here before the M’s have a chance to screw him up.
It’s only two games so I hope Tillman turns it around.
Jason did you catch Feirbends outing the other night? I though he looked pretty good cinsidering his situation. From what I can tell his circlechange is his best pitch, but he does not use it a whole lot. If he is solid in his next start or two what’s the chances he takes Ho Rams job this year, or is he a fronrunner for that spot next year?
Im going on the 60 day DL with soreness in my bottom front teeth sorry guys.
Yeah, it’s better to coddle a kid so he has a brilliant minor league career….so that when he faces adversity at the major league level, he can have his confidence shattered there.
I don’t know the answer…..but chances are, if you can’t handle adversity in the minors, it isn’t going to get any better at the major league level.
I don’t believe it’s wrong to challenge your better players, no matter what level they are one. So far, I haven’t seen ANY data that says one method is better than the other. How many of you were saying how foolish it was to hurry Adam Jones along? Yet, somehow he got through it. Tui took a big step forward, using his poor performance last year, to push himself harder.
I’ll wait for someone here to prove that one method is any better than the other. All I know is…..if you can’t handle a jump to high A ball, or AA…..chances are you’re not going to come away feeling better when dealing with failure after a jump to the majors.
I know I’m in the minority….but I’d rather find out BEFORE they get here that they can handle big jumps…..than to assure they have a pristine minor league career.
I dont mind guys being pushed but i think i wouls rather see them have succes at the level there being pushed from.Tui for example i think was wrong he showed no power in a league that has 3 ballparks that i did my homwork on this he got 52 at bats in and hit no hr.People who saw him say the bat was slow and he was hitting everything to rf in a inside out type swing.Clement could have used more time in 2A instead he injured his elbow and knee and had surgery went to az to rehab and then got promoted to 3A with about 85 atbats in 2A this i think wasnt the right way to do it .Why not let him play in 2A have a 1/2 season of success and then move him 85 atbats?As for pitchers i wouldnt send any of my pitching prospects to Hi Desert they would either jump that league are stay in wisconsin.Hi desert has ruined a ton of pitchers confidence over the years to the point where guys dont every regain there confidence.Picture arena football and then you have what its like to pitch in Hi Desert.
Edtrak,
I wouldn’t call 8 starts for a 19 year old in low-A ball with a mid-3 ERA coddling. His numbers in Wisconsin were nice but hardly dominant, which is what I would have like to see if you move the kid up a level this quick.
For me it is not whether the kid can handle ultimately handle the jump, I’m confident eventually he’ll get his bearings… my issue is whether this method speeds up or slows down the development process.
As for Adam Jones and Tui, well if memory serves me correctly they were both promoted deeper into the season than Mr. Tillman. Another difference, both had what 250+ AB’s and some 70 games minimum…Tillman had 8 starts before now having to face more advanced prospects in a hitters league. If he would have had similar #’s thru July then I would have thought about promoting him the first of August.
I hope the kid lands on his feet soon and that the Mariners FO is swept clean…oh to dream !
To clarify the Weaver-rehab thing…
He can refuse it, that’s up to him and he won’t ever HAVE to go on a rehab stint if he chooses not to.
But the Mariners do not have to activate him until they think he’s ready, either. And Weaver can’t do jack crap about it.
So are you implying that Jeff Weaver won’t be deemed “ready” until he makes a rehab start or two?
So, threebagger…..you’re relying on YOUR observance of a player’s stats, rather than say……I dunno……an instructor who’s not looking specifically at stats, but rather his ability? Stats are important, but what’s MORE IMPORTANT is to know when a player’s abilities are greater than his league. In Tillman’s case, if reports are true prior to the season beginning, that he developed his breaking ball vastly, then perhaps his instructor’s feel he’d be better off at the next level where he’ll have to use it more to get outs?
Again, I don’t know the answer. But, it WON’T be found in the number of starts…..ERA…..BA….etc. Those are things for guys like you and I to get a glimpse into a player’s ability. Only the coaches and instructors KNOW when a kid needs to move up. You can have stellar stats at low A ball, and be a total disaster at the next level, because you feast on fastballs.
Again, cujo…..IF High Dessert ruin’s a pitcher’s confidence……just HOW is he going to handle a trip to the majors? You think major league hitters are going to give him a break, because he’s learning? Low A to high A is a piece of cake, compared to AAA to the majors. Great players find a way to succeed, no matter what level they are on. Your minor league system isn’t there to find good players…..it’s there to find GREAT players. Good players are career AAAA guys, at best. Great players have major league careers.
It’s about finding guys with that extra gear. If you don’t have it a A ball……you won’t gain the benefits of jumping a league, because you might get challenged. You have to WANT to win at every level……and not let the league you are in determine desire.
You think a young Roger Clemen’s would have let any league he was in determine his work ethic or desire? Part of the purpose of a minor league system is not only to train a kid to succeed, but to filter out those who can be major leaguers.
Jones has succeeded because he does he keeps his eye on the ultimate goal, and doesn’t let any league he’s in take him off that path. He succeeds because he wants it…..he just doesn’t like to play baseball.
What cujo is saying is that Tillman isn’t ready to handle the Cal League right now, and most agree with that thought process, including Dave Cameron and myself.
Just like the Cal League, a player isn’t thrust into the majors until he’s ready… if he is, he’s likely to be unable to handle that, too.
The whole “If High Desert ruins a pitcher’s confidence, just HOW is he going to handle a trip to the majors?” analogy hold less water than a dead sponge.
The answer to that question is he won’t. Not until he’s at least somewhat ready. The Mariners have not put him into a situation where he’s likely to succeed.
They should have known better, but since they aren’t very smart I’m certainly not surprised.
Just when I was feeling good about the Mariners and how they are playing, we get this bombshell dropped on us.
About rushing minor leaguers, can anyone say Morrow, he’s been brilliant.
Jason, I agree that Tillman was obviously rushed, but given his stuff and I heared when he was first drafted he was pretty confident, isn’t there a good chance that he’ll adjust to High Desert sooner rather then later? Also what’s up with Butler? What exactly is a “tired arm” I’ve heard the term so much but never any medical explination.
Edtrak you obviusly havent been to alot of minor league games are been to Hi desert have you?It and lancaster are considered the worst 2 places in min or league ball to judge a hitter are a pitcher ecause the ball just flys out of there.What is the problem with allowing the kid a a season in wisconsin to develop?He wasnt crushing the league his stats werent mind bogglin g!Development isnt about winning its about developing guys tools to see how far they can go..hence thats why its called player development so go away you dont know crap about minor league baseball dude!
#36 i agree Morrow has been excellent .But one legit question do you draft a kid # 5 in the coun try to turn him into a reliever a year later to save your job are do you let him develop as a starter in the minors?It has worked well for this guy but at the price that is getting paid to mediocre starters i think i would have let him develop as a starter but again im not the gm with his neck in the nose either!
What is so frustrating is that you would think that after seeing prospects like Tui and Clement struggle with aggressive promotion, they’d back off a bit - especially in the case of a HS pitcher.
Dumb, dumb, dumb…
About rushing minor leaguers, can anyone say Morrow, he’s been brilliant.
Starters vs. relievers = apples vs. oranges
Not to knock on Morrow, but if you have a plus fastball and a serviceable second pitch (and sometimes that is not even necessary), you can enjoy success as a ML reliever.
However, say that at the beginning of the year, we put Morrow into the rotation, rather in the pen. Would he be enjoying the same success? Methinks no. He hasn’t demonstrated any ability to throw a second or third pitch with consistency, he’s NEVER gone through a lineup more than once, and let’s not forget, he only made 24 starts at Cal. That’s the extent of his experience as a starter.
It’s fair to say that he would have really struggled had he been put into the rotation, and those struggles could have severely hampered his development as a starter.
Of course, his current work as a reliever is hampering his development as a starter, so there you go.
Morrow being good in the pen — very good, not brilliant - has nothing to do with the fact that it’s certainly a mistake for the futures of both he and and the team for him to be pitching in relief exclusively already.
Re: Tillman
Sure he has the stuff, but lots of guys have the stuff to succeed and never do. With Tillman it’s about being mature as a player as well as a mental and emotional maturity that will help him deal with the adversity.
He’s less ready in those areas than with his ability to pitch, though he has a lot to learn there, too.
See Gil Meche.
Morrow is good? Let’s be honest, he’s a lucky above average realiever with questionable command right now. He has one pitch - the fastball, and when the other teams realize that, he’ll start getting hit like a pinata. Sure, it’s a great fastball with good movement late, but let’s be honest, noone can survive on just one pitch. Even Mariano Rivera had to switch it up every once in a while.
C’mon Willmore. Morrow has been good. Not great, the bases on balls are worrysome, but he’s thrown 15 consecutive scoreless innings and has gotten the M’s out of some late-inning jams with some big strikeouts.
And yes, Morrow can survive on one pitch. He can’t continue to dominate with just one pitch, but you haven’t been watching an aberration. His mid-90s heater has such great late life that it’s a better 4-seamer than Felix’s.
Morrow’s command will improve with work, and Chaves, Rice and Holman are the right guys for him to work with on and off season.
As much as I respect you and Dave Cameron’s opinions……it’s like taking stock advice from my mechanic. I don’t think there is enough evidence on either side of this coin to make statements about how stupid an organization is….when you aren’t a scout or instructor. I observe a lot of guys at Everett….and I think some have talent, and some don’t have enough. But, I don’t look at the little details instructors and coaches do.
Who would you trust? The guy running a blog….or the instructors and coaches who think a player is ready to move up? Do you expect the player development group to ignore what they are being told, because they don’t believe them?
For years, the M’s moved kids up slowly…..and yet, I don’t see that in those years, they were producing more major league talent than today.
It’s an IMPOSSIBLE target to hit, because NOBODY knows how effective a player would have been, had they been instructed or promoted differently.
It’s simply not worth the debate. But, because the M’s don’t share the same view as you, doesn’t make them stupid…..just different. When you can prove to me that you’re right, then I’ll be convinced….but you can’t prove conjecture.
Edtrak…
If Dave and I were the only one’s saying this, I’d have never said it with such conviction.
But I have talked to other teams’ scouts and front office people and several of them talk about the Mariners as the laughing stock of the league.
And I’m sure Cameron has had the same types of experiences and conversations.
Your logic is so illogical, it would take an entire new post to right that ship.
I’ll pass.
But let me ask you this…
When have the Mariners been successful at pushing a kid hard, particularly a pitcher, and specifically a 19-year-old with so little pro experience?
There’s more than just two ways to handle Tillman, and any other prospect. You can be aggressive, conservative, and you can be extreme on either side- and probably a million places in between.
There’s really no responsible rationale for sending Tillman to High Desert right now, and from what I have gathered on the subject via a couple of scouts, it’s probably not going to ruin him, entirely.
But the chances that it hinders and slows his development is a lot higher than the chances that it propels his career unto a faster track, which is why it makes so little sense in late May.
If this were late July and Tillman was cruising since April, you can’t blame a team for smacking the kid in the face and challenging him.
One Assistant GM I speak to regularly that was high on Tillman last June for the draft is really disappointed about the move and had this to say Thursday night:
“If it helps him, great. But if he struggles and tries to do too much, overcompensates and hurts himself, what then?
“The biggest thing for me is making sure the young, raw kids from high school are put in a situation where they feel confident every time out. When you are getting battered around, it’s very hard to feel that way. Trust me, I pitched in a bandbox when I was in A ball at 18, and it almost ended my career because I couldn’t deal with it.
“There’s really no harm at all with leaving him down there (in Wisconsin) where he can be successful every start he makes and can continue to develop his pitches, mechanics, command, etc. All things he may not be able to focus on as much if his lines look like that of the bad Weaver.”
Who would you trust? The guy running a blog….or the instructors and coaches who think a player is ready to move up? Do you expect the player development group to ignore what they are being told, because they don’t believe them?
And what kind of track record to those instructors and coaches have? Hmmmm?
Do you honestly trust the Mariners organization to make a proper decision when it comes to their young prospects? Honestly?
Go see some games Edtrak above the northwest league all your seeing there are greenhorns learning about pro baseball.Come to tacoma are portland and watch pros who no whats right and wrong and how to play the game.Teaching is what is sipposed to be done in everett.When you say the instructars know when to move players you are so far off point its unreal.If you havent read the papers are watched Bavasi is calling the shots on aggresive movement of players allthough he hasnt seen 2 games at tacoma all year and who knows if he has been to tenn are wisconsin im sure he has been to Hi Desert because he spends alot of time at home in so.cal.
Bavasi hadn’t been to West Tenn as of May 21. He did see HD at least once, and I haven’t seen him in Tacoma.
A little off topic but is truinfel’s injury considered a big problem ie surgery or something along those lines or is it something like a broken bone or strained thumb? Thx
I don’t think anything is broken, they are treating it like a sprain, but a thumb sprain can be bad. I haven’t heard whether he has a tear or not, but if he did he’d miss the rest of the year.
From the tone of the voice I spoke to, the M’s aren’t very optimistic, so this could be really bad news.
Ugh….
Cujo, NEVER make assumptions. I’ve been to Tacoma many times. I’ve seen the good, the bad, and the why are they still filling out a roster. I simply mentioned Everett.
Everett is a far better place to get a gauge on kids with talent, and those without. At AAA, the lines are much finer and not so clear as to who has major league talent, and who doesn’t…..as it should be. I enjoy Everett, because you can see those kids that have the drive that sets them apart.
I admit, I got a little pissed off when Jason felt the need to name drop….and picked Dave Cameron. BFD…..what’s his history in being any more than another fan with an opinion? Perhaps he gets a little more inside dope. But, he’s not a talent evaluator….he’s a talent guesser…..much like all of us novice fans.
Don’t get me wrong, I totally appreciate Jason, Dave, and the others that post here. But, I don’t think there are many of us who knows any more than what we read or are told. So what, a few scouts and baseball people have opinions?
Your GM friend, does he have the M’s scouting and instructional reports? Or, is he just like us, making observations base on the limited scope he has?
Again, don’t get me wrong…..I personally would rather see Tillman get more time in low A ball. But, I accept the possibility that his instructors, right or wrong, felt his time there wasn’t helping him develop to the best of his ability. THAT is their ultimate goal….not pad stats….not making sure every situation they put a kid in is stress free.
And please, don’t bring up the phantom injury card. A kid can overthrow at ANY level at ANY point in their career. In case you missed it, the M’s had some mighty fine minor league pitchers a few years back that they took one step at a time. They did ALL the things you expect now….and they still didn’t avoid injury and a lost career.
Again…..what is the answer? Probably somewhere between coddling and pressing. How do you know where that is? Hell if I know. I know the one step at a time process didn’t land the M’s the starting pitchers they were expecting. So, maybe that in itself isn’t the answer.
Should Tillman have moved up? IMHO, no. But, I’d go talk to his instructors BEFORE I call a move unwarranted. If Pat Rice agrees with you, fine. But, as I recall, Pat thought Tillman was very close to the majors, with all the improvement with his breaking pitch (slider, I think).
As for the Mariner’s organization being a joke. Well, you’ve talked to ALL reps for ALL organizations to get a well rounded opinion? Or, perhaps, you’ve talked to the guys who agree with you and tell you what you want to hear.
BTW….cujo….it doesn’t matter if Bavasi sees ANY games. It’s nice if he does…..but it’s not his job to evaluate when a kid is ready to move up. It’s his job to read the reports and recommendations. He simply determines if all the questions have been answered before he agrees with the move. In a few rare occations, he might go out and get a first hand view….but, for the most part, he’s reviewing tape and reading reports. THAT is his job, not to be the scout.
You may not agree with it, but that’s how nearly every organization in baseball operates. Gillick was a rare bird, in that being a former scout, he liked to get a first hand look, in most cases. But, I’m willing to bet, he didn’t go out and look at every kid any time a move was recommended.
Please dont even use Gillick And Bavasi in the same breath one is a winner and the other is a proven loser as a gm.You say its his job to read reports and recomendations on who should do what correct.If you have listened at all he doesnt do that he decides young players careers from his office without seeing them .Hell he isnt even here 1/3 of the time he lives in so.cal.I remember allways seeing Gillick in tacoma for a day game if the mariners had a night game are if the team was on the road it is only 30 miles are so isnt it?Yes i havent agreed much with Bavasi during his 3 years and 3 last place finishes as a gm especially when he made excuses that the farm was dry when he got here .That was a complete lie but he got away with it in are soft media market here in seattle and how he replenished it with his trades hell the only decent trade has been huber i think the guy is a conterfiet G.M. that talks in circles so until he is out i will ride that…
Dude Cujo, commas are you friend.
Cujo - Give Bavasi a little credit. Gillick left the farm system barren. Thanks to Bavasi (or maybe Fontaine?), there is a lot more talent in the organization.
That said, the organization’s philosophy for player development has a horrible track record. It is therefore perfectly legitimate to doubt the Mariners’ decision re: Tillman.
Really bare ..huhm Putz.Lopez.Felix.Sherrill.Oflahertty.Jones ,Fierbrand,Rivera,Absdural Carbrera,Baek,Choo,Livingston,Dobbs,,Do i need to go further that is far past BARREN DUDE!You do the research how many other clubs had that much talent in that time frame?I bet you are surprised those where all on the farm when bumbling bill took over arent you?So that excuse is a tired one you have your # 1 starter your closer your setup man and your starting 2ndbaseman and your # 5 starters right there i think you should really think about that.Also Fruto,Snelling,nottingham should i continue?
Goose..I cant write very well i understand this !..lol
Dude - the 3-year slide we are now emerging from had everything to do with the way Gillick ran the organization. When Boone, Freddy, Olerud, Edgar, Cammy, etc left, and when Meche, Pineiro, and Franklin commenced sucking, we had ZERO help from the farm. Choo? Please. Fruto? Ha. Livingston? Baek? Dobbs? Lol. RIVERA?? RIVERA??? RIVERA????!?!!!??? Are you serious?
I’m not sure why you are bragging about most of those players. Sherrill, Putz, Jones, and Felix and maybe Lopez are the only quality players who even have the potential of having above-average careers. You find prospects like the rest in ANY other farm system. In essence, Gillick left us with a bunch of AAAA players.
The foundation for this team is built upon Bavasi/Fontaine picks. Six of Jason’s top ten prospects are Bavasi picks. (LaHair probably should be replaced, perhaps w/Tui - a Bavasi pick).
Gillick’s 2003 draft saved him as far as the farm system goes. They got Jones, O’Flaherty and Feierabend from that draft. That’s damned good for any draft.
And by the way… What if Gillick WANTED to trade the vets and rebuild sooner and Lincoln and company wouldn’t let him?
Ever think of that? Because I’m 100% sure there were more than a few instances when Pat believed going younger might have made sense, or at least replacing the vet with a cheaper veteran until a kid was ready.
Sure, Gillick likes veterans, but so does Epstein and Cashman.
And C’mon, would you trade 2000-2003 where the team won 91, 116, 93 and 93 games and had two LCS appearances for a better farm system when Pat left the GM spot after ‘03?
Not me. The Mariners needed a quick return from their GM and Pat gave them that. There were consequences for doing so, which ended up being the money they spent on the draft being reduced and the 25-man carrying few youngsters. But he did it in ONE YEAR.
If Gillick would have been given, say five years to build, you don’t think he would have done things differently?
The suits will never give their GM more than a few years to get it done.
Adam are you happy with the dreams we now have in prospects?Are were you happy with being in the playoffs every year?4A players huhn Livingston won last night Dobbs is out producing our Dh that we are paying 7.5 million to in 1/2 the atbats more rbi and more hr i dont know maybe given a chance we had a player?Wow any other system a starting 2nd baseman,a #1 starter a closer a very good situanional lefty a two #4-5 starters you better look around at the playoff teams and do a little homework you are way offbase. I didnt even count Lahair but if you think he is good theres another one.Do you realise that bench players help teams win divisions also?It isnt only the draft Gillick brought in Bob Engle who is the guy in charge of findine all of these latin players they have if Engle wasnt here who would be doing this so yes he did bring in the guy who found bettencourt also.Every team that has a older manager likes vetrans who dont make as many mistakes as youngsters and know how to relax right away and play.So Adam did you like the 3 years of winning are do you like are 3 years in last place hoping we have some prospects and watching bumbling bill spend unwisely on crappy free agents ?That is the real question?Well do ya?
cujo - it takes a damn cipher to read your posts. The biggest key on the keyboard is the space bar. Use it. I’d also recommend pushing the key that says “Enter” every once in a while.
But to interpret your blatherings: Do other systems produce as many current starters as the Gillick system did for the M’s? Just about every team in baseball starts at least as many home-grown talents as the M’s do. Playoff teams?
Detroit - Verlander, Zumaya, Inge, Monroe, Thames, Granderson, Maroth, Robertson
Minnesota - Just about the entire team
Cleveland - Just about the entire team
Oakland - You get the idea
Yankees - Rivera, Posada, Jeter, Procter, Pettite, Cano, Cabrera, Hughes,
Anahiem - Weaver, F-Rod, Shields, Santana, Kendrick, Kotchman
And that’s just the AL. I won’t bother to go through the Braves, Mets, Brewers, Dodgers, and D-Backs.
If you really think Dobbs and Livingston and Fruto are shining examples of Gillick’s prowess at stocking the minors with talent, you are way off the mark.
And you are wrong about choosing between three years of 90+ wins and 3 years in last place “hoping we have some prospects and watching bumblng bill spend…” Good franchises win AND build a strong farm system. Ask Minnesota, Oakland, Cleveland, Boston, Detroit, the Mets, the Braves, and the Dodgers how that works. I appreciated Gillick’s efforts to put a winning product on the field. However, he did NOT do a good job of minding the farm system, however, and he should not get a pass for that.
What should bumbling bill get a pass for?Just for your knowledge Thames isnt a tiger draft.Proctor isnt a yankee draft.You might want to take a harder look at oaklands starting nine.The twins do it right yes they do.Clevland Sizemore ,Barfield,Hafner,Blake,Nixon and delluchi i believe thats 6 of there starting nine in tonights lineuop where not signed by clevland.Just another one for you tonights dodger lineup 7 of the nine starters arent dodger drafts so again you are wrong but im done with this you bring up stats that arent true and have no backbone to them.Just face facts we have a idiot at the helm!
If you really need to look at one day’s starting lineups (talk about small sample size),
From tonight’s probable starting lineup:
Ichiro - FA
Vidro - Trade
Guillen - Trade
Ibanez - FA (previous Mariner)
Sexson - FA
Beltre - FA
Kohjima - FA
Batista - FA
What’s your point again?
Cleveland starts more home-grown talent than the M’s. So does Oakland. So do all of the teams I mentioned. I did miss on Thames and Proctor, although each did spend time in the Tigers and Yanks systems before coming to the show. But I’ll admit those mistakes. Doesn’t really change my point.
Again, you have the dubious duty here to demonstrate that Gillick left a strong farm system in place when he left. I’ll give you Felix, Lopez, and Jones. Putz really didn’t blossom until 2005, but we’ll give him to you. Same with Sherrill. We got fortunate with those two.
So tell us how awesome of prospects Dobbs, Livingston, Fruto, and Rivera were. Tell us how they contributed to a strong farm system. Then explain why that farm system has contributed so little over the last three years.
You are wrong on this point, bro.
Nobody sais it was strong but to say it was barren is nuts!If you get Felix,Lopez,Putz and Sherrill thats pretty good.The draft could be one of the biggest crap shoots in the world and you hear about genius that are great at the draft.Everyone is praising Logan White from the dodgers they have alot of great prospects but until they become M.L. ready players thats all they are is prospects.Everyone in baseball thought Naggoette was gonna be a star because he lead alot of the low minors in strikeouts a couple of times.Why did he do this ?Because he had a slider that was better then everyone elses.When he got to 3A guys didnt swing at it because it wasnt a strike this means seattle overevaluated him and a lot of scouts where wrong.This happens more then we all think.Is James Loney are Adam Jones gonna be stars because baseball america says they are?Only time will tell adam i enjoyed the debate take care..CUJO
How well Bavasi and company have done won’t be seen for a few more years. I figure it takes at least five years to evaluate a draft.
I don’t think Gillick had particularly strong drafts, but the guys he retained from Woody’s days, drafted typically only “make-up” kind of guys. The separation in strategy is that Fontaine also picks guys who may not have make-up, but show they can play the game. Hubbard is one of those guys. He didn’t get high marks for make-up, but showed he could play.
Fontaine isn’t likely to waste early picks on guys who don’t have make-up, but he’s not afraid to use mid to late picks on guys he feels can work themselves into a career.
Which is right? Hard to tell, yet. For everything Gillick lacked in the draft, he made up for in the International arena. Luckily, the brains behind that is still here, in Bob Engle. His good work is still going on…..seems there’s this shortstop in Wisconsin who can really play.
Personally, I think Gillick’s big failure with the farm system is that his mid level picks weren’t very good. Which, to me, means the scouting department wasn’t working hard enough. To Fontaine’s credit….that’s all he does all year, is work on minor league personnel.
I have faith in him because from all I’ve read about him, he’s relentless and expects the same of his people. He wants more than routine scouting. I respect anyone who approaches their work with that kind of passion.